Richard Jones of Wunderkind On Modern Consumerism; What It Was, What It Is, How We Got Here, & What We Can Do About It
An Interview With Drew Gerber
Yes, and no. I’ll put my hands up and say there are often things I want that I could do without, but I don’t think I’ll be the first or last person to say that. I believe I’m very lucky, and I have basically everything I need to get by — I’m comfortable, warm and have enough food, so my basic needs are definitely met. However, I think I’m much like anyone else in that I’m always looking to optimize processes to make things as easy and comfortable as possible. I might spend extra money on a more comfortable desk chair, or I could invest in a good pair of headphones for business calls. No, they’re not necessary, but they sure do make things a lot easier for me, and I feel a need to buy them.
Sometimes it feels like we all live in a hamster wheel and no matter how much we make, or how much we succeed, it is never enough. Even people making 6 or 7-figure incomes, can still feel that they are barely making it. Where did this “never-enoughness” come from? Were things always like this? When exactly did it change? What would be needed to return to an earlier framework of consumerism that doesn’t burn us all out?
In this series, we are talking to historians, journalists, authors, social science experts, sociologists, thought leaders, and other experts about the history and progression of modern consumerism. As a part of this series, I had the distinct pleasure of interviewing Richard Jones.
Richard Jones has more than 20 years of marketing, sales and strategy experience during which he has worked with top brands to understand and adapt to the nuances of modern consumerism amid any ever-evolving customer landscape. Prior to joining Wunderkind as Chief Revenue Officer and Chief Marketing Officer, Jones served as CMO of Cheetah Digital, a cross-channel customer engagement solution provider. Beginning his career in sales, Jones is a proven CRO and two-time start-up CEO, including serving as CEO of Wayin, a global leader in zero-party data collection and activation, where he helped leading brands, such as Daily Mail Group, NHL, Bauer Media, Vodafone, Priceline.com, Reckitt Benckiser, Air New Zealand and Manchester City FC, create zero-party data strategies and staying a step ahead of today’s discerning consumer.
Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series! Before we dive in, our readers would love to know how you got from “there to here.” Inspire us with your backstory!
I ended up taking a job in a marketing agency as a very young man who was working on incentive programs for IBM at the birth of eCommerce on the internet. I quickly realized that the incentives that were being handed out to IBM salespeople were worth more than my annual salary, so I decided to take a job at Tech Sales. I spent many years there before deciding that I not only wanted to sell technology, but wanted to build technology for marketers. I ended up founding a software and services company that did pretty well. It spread to the US, UK and Australia, growing to about 200 enterprise customers. We essentially had a platform that ran quizzes, challenges, competitions and sweepstakes to engage audiences, collect first-party data and profile consumers. I sold that to Cheetah Digital and worked there for three years as CMO before finally joining Wunderkind as CMO then quickly promoted to Chief Revenue Officer.
What lessons would you share with yourself if you had the opportunity to meet your younger self?
Follow your passion. It’s so much easier to be successful if you’re very passionate about what you do and you’re intellectually stimulated by your work. And that means not always following the money. I definitely spent too long in enterprise sales before jumping out to become an entrepreneur and found a company. I would have done that sooner if I wasn’t swayed so much by earning good money.
None of us are able to experience success without support along the way. Is there a particular person for whom you are grateful for that support to grow you from “there to here?” Can you share that story and why you are grateful for him or her?
My main angel investor at the company I founded, Engage Sciences, was a guy called Dick Carhill. He was a tenured executive in the MarTech space. At a certain point in the company’s trajectory, I was the Co-Founder and CEO. As a board member, he took me aside while I was running around and working like crazy. The company was doing quite well and was growing 100% per year and looked to have a great future. He asked me a question that stopped me dead in my tracks: “Richard, what are you doing that’s impeding growth?” I looked at him and my jaw hit the ground. I asked, “What do you mean impede growth? Nothing. I am literally doing everything. My fingers are in every single pie. I’ve got strategies working in each and every department. I’m absolutely central to everything that’s going on in this company.” He looked at me and said, “Exactly.” The penny dropped. By being involved in every single thing, I was becoming a roadblock to growth, because too much of the company’s strategy, actions and decisions were flowing through one individual. It’s also a similar mistake that I see many career executives make that haven’t had the good fortune of having a mentor like Dick Carhill.
What day-to-day structures do you have in place for you to experience a fulfilled life?
I make sure that I exercise 4–5 times a week, including participating in team sports. There’s nothing like a team to make sure you turn up. That’s become increasingly important in my life to handle the stress of being an executive. The further up the chain you go, the more decisions you have to make and more stress that comes with it. Having ways to balance that stress is extremely important if you want to have a long career and keep your energy levels very high. Sports, for me, is integral to be able to do that. It doesn’t matter what’s going on at work. The 90 minutes I’m on the soccer field playing, there’s nothing else running through my mind. That kind of mental break from day-to-day stress is utterly important for longevity.
Are you working on any exciting new projects now? How do you think it might help people?
Yes I am. I’m working with a US technology startup. It’s doing something that’s truly transformational in the way brands, CMOs and Chief Digital Officers can contract and acquire technology and services. For the majority of my career, when people buy in either category, it’s been through a SaaS (software-as-a-service) framework, which, in its day, was revolutionary. Rather than take technology I have to host, manage and maintain myself as a company, through software as a service, I can just get a login over the internet, have services to support my use, and it’s much easier to consume and manage the technologies that are going to help drive your business. SaaS has been great, but I do think we’re in a moment now where it’s time for a change, and the change is for technology companies to offer revenue-as-a-service, where they’re using their software and services to guarantee an outcome that drives revenue for their customers. The world’s changing, and marketers, chief digital officers and CMOs need predictability in outcomes to manage their business properly. Vendors that can deliver revenue-as-a service with guaranteed outcomes are a much more dependable source of growth for the future. It also means it’s not just about promising what you’re going to do with technology — it’s actually being able to do it. I’m energized by being part of an organization pioneering this new model and I think it’s truly transformational for the industry at large — especially at a time when brands are under more pressure than ever to prove ROI and know what moves the need for the customer.
Ok, thank you for sharing your inspired life. Now let’s discuss the “ism” behind most marketing: consumerism. To begin, can you share with our readers a bit about why you are an authority on the history of consumerism?
I’ll preface it with an authority on the history of consumerism as it relates to the adoption and integration of digital channels into consumers’ everyday life. The first job I ever had was essentially running programs for IBM’s sales reps to understand what eCommerce was and to start selling the very first internet-based retail solutions. We’re talking about the mid-to-late 90s. I followed that whole process through, from the very birth of eCommerce and the roll-out of the internet, to how consumers interact with brands, form relationships, buy products, engage in loyalty programs across digital channels and how those channels fit within an omnichannel infrastructure spanning both physical retail stores and online. Those worlds are deeply intertwined now, and I’ve been doing that since the mid-to-late 90s. It’s been a long journey.
Let’s begin with a basic definition so that we are all on the same page. How do you define the concept of consumerism?
Consumerism is essentially the human desire to acquire physical goods. This could be the purchasing of clothes, groceries, electronics or even buying a house; it’s that desire to buy and own things that make our lives easier. Of course, it’s important to acknowledge that the term can often have negative connotations with our constant need for more, or for things we don’t necessarily need.
Throughout history, marketing has driven trade for humans. What role do you see that marketing played to get human societies where we are today?
Marketing certainly has been on a journey from naked support of profit to essentially being the conduit for deep relationships between brands and consumers. That shift to relationships has also meant that marketing has had to adapt to the values that the target market in society holds dear, which has often meant that marketing has been campaigning for causes for good, such as sustainability, diversity and inclusion, and other noteworthy causes. That’s an important shift we’ve seen over the last few years, and I think as we continue focusing on marketing being that conduit for relationships, we’re going to see more of that being necessary to drive identity and authenticity in the relationship, and in the way consumers see brands. That’s been an important journey, and I hope to see more of it in the coming years. Marketing dollars have a big role to play in society, and I’d like to see more of that being unleashed, in terms of how we control the internet, privacy regulations and the Metaverse. These are the things that brand dollars and marketing can help shape for the better.
Were there other points in history when humans experienced “I don’t have enough” even when basic needs such as food, shelter, and clothing were met?
As humans, we’ve always had this desire to own more and more things even when our basic needs are met, all throughout history. Egyptian pharaohs had jewels, temples and tombs; medieval queens and kings had castles with exuberant food and luxurious clothes. When basic needs are met there’s always a desire for more, and that’ll be whatever you can get to make life easier or live luxuriously.
Humans are distinguished from animals by their use of language. How do language, storytelling and other human-only attributes leave people with a sense of not having enough?
As humans, we love a good story. Yet this can often leave us with a feeling that we need more, whether that’s the latest phone, the fastest car or all the accessories under the sun. Our ability to storytell means we can create an image of our lives being better with a new product in it, and once we have that idea in our head, it’s hard not to want it. For example, as soon as you see an advert telling you how much better your life will be with a cozy new winter coat, you’re going to be thinking about that coat, and the storytelling surrounding it, the next time you’re standing outside on a cold day.
Different cultures view trade/consumerism differently. For example, many 21st-century marketing professionals in a capitalistic society will discuss solving human “pain points” as a way to sell products, services, and other wares successfully. How do cultures differ? Please give examples or studies you may know about.
Cultures do vary hugely when it comes to what they’re looking for, and what goods are important to them. This can often be influenced by factors such as belief systems and religions, depending on what is deemed important. For example, some cultures will find their dress and personal grooming of importance, while others may value the home they present to others. It’s all part of what makes us unique as humans and defines our individuality. Yes, we may all desire things even once our basic needs are met, but what it is we want can differ so much depending on what we value, and our reasons behind desiring certain products. Those who value adventure might buy equipment for outdoor sports, while homebodies who have comfort at the forefront of their mind may prefer to buy cozy clothing and furniture. Although these are simple examples, this is where the modern marketer’s idea of ‘pain points’ comes in. The adventurer looking for sports equipment is more likely to buy expensive socks with a layer of lining to prevent blisters the next time they’re on a hike, than if they’re sold expensive socks without the promise this will prevent foot pain–therefore quite literally solving a pain point. Equally, the homebody might be persuaded to buy a better quality sofa if they’re told that their new, more expensive model will last them ten years instead of the three years, which their previous sofa lasted: once again solving a pain point.
How have human technological advances impacted trade and marketing professionals’ obsession to solve human “pain points?”
Stating the obvious, technological advances have vastly impacted how marketers can reach and help consumers in countless ways. One of the greatest ways of course is the birth of the internet, digital channels and the many ways humans can connect with each other and access an endless amount of information. In turn, this allows marketers to more effectively reach humans how, when and where they are more receptive to receiving such messages. It wasn’t that long ago in history that professionals were largely dependent on billboards or direct mail campaigns. While these media still exist, technology has enabled us to segment the audiences most likely to benefit from a product or service, understand their habits and preferences and reach them with a solution that can genuinely address their personal or professional needs. For all the criticism that can come toward marketing and the negative aspects of technology, we should not forget that these advances also empower individuals to embrace what is most comfortable for them — essentially putting them in the driver’s seat, with the onus on marketing professionals’ to reject a one-size-fits-all (or fits noone) approach.
In your opinion, how has the way humans consumed their news impacted trade, consumerism, and human development? Can you please explain what you mean?
What comes to mind when we think about how we consume news, is the pandemic. We all know it completely changed the way we think and behave, so when the news was full of fear and warnings to stay at home, that’s what we did. We got our information about the outside world from our phones and tablets, and started working from home, so even human connection with colleagues and loved ones was through a screen. In turn, this meant we wanted better home setups, so we sought out new electronic goods, house plants, home decor, and more “non-essential” items. For the younger generation, kids who spent two years in and out of lockdowns, this will have impacted their development and understanding of the world around them. It’s changed everyone’s attitudes and ideas of ‘normality’, with some more affected than others. However, this has now all changed, as the lockdowns are over and we consume news about the cost-of-living crisis. Many consumers are now valuing experiences and spending time with people more than before, and we’re careful about how we spend our money when we do spend it. Recent fears surrounding inflation and the economy have made us more selective about our shopping habits.
Maslow’s hierarchy of needs indicates that humans only seek self-actualization after basic needs are met. How do you think “clickbait” impacts Maslow’s hierarchy and the overall human development?
Clickbait has undeniably impacted our attention spans, and ideas of what we’re interested in and what’s exciting. Modern marketers know exactly how to get our attention within a space of seconds, and maybe it’s only a few seconds they need to show us all the information we need from them. The average attention span is now around 8 seconds, which is a great challenge for marketers attempting to convey their message, and it means we end up consuming vast amounts of small snippets of information. With a growing middle class, more and more people’s basic needs are being met across the US and the UK, which means we have more time and energy for our attention to be diverted elsewhere. We want to learn, and we want to be entertained. Phenomena such as TikTok are a testament to this, as we consume very short video clips which likely teach us something, or make us laugh. It’s a form of quick human connection that captures our attention. It’ll be interesting to see how the next few years play out for TikTok, with its relatively young user base, and how marketers can use this platform to reach customers where they already are, in the format they want.
For you personally, if you have all your basic needs met, do you feel you have enough in life? Can you please explain what you mean?
Yes, and no. I’ll put my hands up and say there are often things I want that I could do without, but I don’t think I’ll be the first or last person to say that. I believe I’m very lucky, and I have basically everything I need to get by — I’m comfortable, warm and have enough food, so my basic needs are definitely met. However, I think I’m much like anyone else in that I’m always looking to optimize processes to make things as easy and comfortable as possible. I might spend extra money on a more comfortable desk chair, or I could invest in a good pair of headphones for business calls. No, they’re not necessary, but they sure do make things a lot easier for me, and I feel a need to buy them.
You are a person of enormous influence. If you could start a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. 🙂
Wow, great question! I have a lot of ideas that I’d love to try out, but if I could pick one which I really think would make a positive impact, linked to consumerism, I’d want to create a movement in which we could encourage people to slow down and reflect. I’d love to bring about ‘mindful consumerism’ where we really stop to process and absorb the things we see, do and buy on a daily basis. We could take our time to understand what we’re reading in the news without responding with uninformed commentary; we could learn about the products we buy through storytelling and informed decisions instead of impulse purchases; and of course, stop to appreciate the world around us and connect with people. I think these ideas are really at the forefront of the collective consciousness at the moment. After the pandemic, we’ve been thinking more about how and when we shop, exactly what we’re spending and who we spend our time with–whether that’s in-person or online, it’s now more important than ever. It’s all about conscious spending, whether that’s our money or time, we must be mindful.
What is the best way for our readers to continue to follow your work online?
Check out Wunderkind’s website, along with our blog, podcast, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook and Twitter accounts.
This was very inspiring. Thank you so much for the time you spent on this. We wish you only continued success.
About The Interviewer: For 30 years, Drew Gerber has been inspiring those who want to change the world. Drew is the CEO of Wasabi Publicity, Inc., a full-service PR agency lauded by PR Week and Good Morning America. Wasabi Publicity, Inc. is a global marketing company that supports industry leaders, change agents, unconventional thinkers, companies and organizations that strive to make a difference. Whether it’s branding, traditional PR or social media marketing, every campaign is instilled with passion, creativity and brilliance to powerfully tell their clients’ story and amplify their intentions in the world. Schedule a free consultation at WasabiPublicity.com/Choosing-Publicity.
Richard Jones of Wunderkind On Modern Consumerism; What It Was, What It Is, How We Got Here, & What… was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.