An Interview With Vanessa Ogle
Better decision making — Unconscious bias or prejudice can lead to unfavorable decisions in the workplace. This applies to me, the staff or the guests. Here, I might focus on cultural sensitivity from a generational point of view. I am a least a generation older than my manager. If he gives me some advice I don’t like or seems strange, do I say to myself, ‘He’s just a kid — what does he know?’ Yet, from a Moroccan perspective he may be right and might be offering an innovate idea. Alternatively, if he has doubts, because of the society’s respect for their elders, should he just do what I say without question?
In today’s globalized world, understanding and respecting cultural differences is not just a moral imperative, it’s a business necessity. Cultural sensitivity in business goes beyond mere awareness; it’s about actively adapting and responding to the diverse cultural landscapes in which businesses operate. This is crucial for building successful, respectful, and inclusive working environments and for creating products and services that resonate with a diverse customer base. As part of this series, we had the pleasure of interviewing Philip Brebner.
With Scottish roots, Philip Brebner was educated in the US and UK. He lectured as Assistant Professor at architecture schools in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, and then in Oporto, Portugal, where two of his colleagues became winners of the Pritzker Prize. During this time, he published in academic journals, The Independent newspaper, and wrote his first novel which received critical acclaim, and was translated. A twist of fate led him to buy a tumble down riad, or courtyard house, in Marrakech which he restored and opened as a boutique hotel. For the most part, he manages it remotely, whilst writing a murder mystery series set in Morocco, which begins with Shadows of Marrakech. He has twice been Chair of the Board of Governors at the Oporto British School, founded in 1898.
Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series. Before we dive into our discussion about cultural sensitivity, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you share with us the backstory about what brought you to your specific career path?
I became familiar with North African history, culture and property law researching my PhD thesis on the political development of urban planning in Algeria 1830–1982. After lecturing for three years in Jeddah at the School of Environmental Design, set up under the auspices of Harvard, there was delay in my job offer at the architectural school in Oporto, prompting me to write my first novel. Shortly afterwards one of our daughters was hospitalized with a puzzling childhood illness and during a few fraught weeks at her bedside, a friend brought an interior design magazine which happened to feature a dazzling array of renovated riads, or courtyard houses, in Marrakech, which was an alluring distraction.
Life back on track, it seemed the stars started to align. My wife, a Portuguese bioMolecular modeler, was invited to a conference in Marrakech, and we went along as a family. Whilst there we thought it would be fun to view two or three old riads for sale — just part of the grand Marrakech adventure, or so we thought. Returning home, out of the blue, a colleague and I were asked to join a consortium and enter a competition to design an eco-resort on Morocco’s Atlantic coast. The proposal won, but after being flown to Casablanca, we were told that at the last minute, the Moroccan Government had shelved the project. In a moment of madness, I took the plunge, travelled to Marrakech, and bought a tumble-down riad. To cover renovation costs and ensure someone in residence, we decided to run it as a boutique hotel, closing it for family holidays. I manage it for the most part remotely, whilst writing a murder mystery series set in Morocco.
Can you share the most interesting story that happened to you since you started your career?
Quite simply, how a sequence of events induced me to open a business in Marrakech.
You are a successful individual. Which three character traits do you think were most instrumental to your success? Can you please share a story or example for each?
1 — Embracing challenges — The PhD grant I was offered was linked to Algeria, and I almost turned it down as my French at school was terrible. Due to the country’s colonial past, most of the research was primarily French, at ANOM, the colonial archives in Aix-en-Provence, as well as at government agencies and historical record offices in Algeria itself. It was a struggle at the beginning but being immersed in the language and fascinated by the subject of my thesis, I soon became proficient. This had two positive long-term consequences. First, when I was offered a lectureship at the school of architecture in Oporto, tackling Portuguese did not seem so much of hurdle, and I took it my stride. Secondly, when I embarked on the Marrakech project, most of the property law was transposed from France during its colonial period, much like that in Algeria. Consequently, I found the legal side straightforward, and it was almost second nature to navigate the necessary bureaucracy as well as communicating with the project manager and the builder.
2 — Creative or lateral thinking — Djemma El Fna is the famous square in Marrakech, with its snake charmers, tattoo artists, musicians and food stalls. Most tourists staying in the Medina want accommodation close by, although there are many other museums, monuments and sights to see. However, I bought a riad on the edge of the tourist trail, partly due to my puny budget and partly because, being familiar with North African towns, I did not want to walk out the door to see rugs, plates and bric-à-brac for sale. Still, at the time, I saw this could jeopardize our occupancy rate as a small hotel and the location might adversely affect our ratings. Looking ahead, the solution was to turn this potential negative for tourists into a positive. So, when we opened for business, I promoted the area, centered around the stunning but often overlooked shrine complex of Sidi Bel Abbess, the patron saint of the city, as being authentic, bohemian and a location chosen by names such as the Hermès family for their Marrakech homes. This angle attracted seasoned travelers looking for a different type of Marrakech and opened other markets, especially from artists and interior designers who lead curated tours. In short, we have a high occupancy rate, the impact of location being almost negligible.
3 — Flexibility — I started my adult life as an architect/urban planner, moved into academia, gave writing fiction a whirl, and made a run at the hospitality industry. In fact, to keep the wolf from the door, at one stage I started dealing in rugs and rare textiles through Istanbul, not knowing anything about business at the time. Although I had to be quite disciplined, I personally do not like being stuck in a rut and the new experiences helped me grow and mature as a person.
Ok, thank you for that. Let’s now jump to the primary focus of our interview. How do you define cultural sensitivity in the context of your business, and why is it important for your company’s success?
For me, cultural sensitivity is acknowledging and respecting the different values and behaviors of individuals from diverse backgrounds. I think we all have our own subconscious prejudices or biases. Owning a small boutique hotel in Marrakech engenders a heady mix of cultures and backgrounds and often I have felt like a juggler on Djemma El Fna. I am British, the staff are Moroccan, and nearly all our clients are from Europe or America and misunderstandings could easily occur, due to linguistic, cultural, religious and educational issues. I mention education as our excellent housekeeping staff only have a basic level of schooling and primarily speak the local Arabic dialect, darija, but by contrast the manager has a law degree and speaks, like many educated Moroccans, three languages fluently. Further, the educational system is often hauled up as being outdated, focusing on rote learning rather than the critical thinking more common in schools outside Morocco. As the director I am used to taking these factors into account by giving clear-cut instructions and a narrow range of tasks at any one time. The calm, respectful environment this creates is important to the business’s success as leaving with a positive view of Morocco encourages excellent reviews and hence, new clients.
Can you share an experience where cultural sensitivity significantly impacted a business decision or client relationship?
Religious events and holidays are a good example. In the early days of the hotel, when clients were few and far between, a yoga group from London inquired about the exclusive use of the property, paying extra for a lot of specific demands, which I was quick to accept. Shortly afterwards, I found they were staying over the Eid holiday, the ‘Great Festival,’ celebrating the willingness of the Prophet Abraham to sacrifice his only son Ishmael. I was unconcerned and knew that for those three days I could legally give days in lieu — which would be covered by future gaps in the booking planner. The decision left me with an unhappy group of mutinous staff. I confess this had already been foreshadowed by Ramadan, the month of fasting between sunrise and sunset. Apart from preparing breakfast for any guests, I had told the staff their hours could be flexible, but once again, there was a three-day holiday at the conclusion of the holy month. I presumed the staff would be willing to work, taking the days off later, and thought a month of fasting was the reason for the sense of discontent I felt, only to be confirmed by a guest’s review who used the word ‘grumpy.’ In Algeria my extended research trips happened to be outside these holy events, and this opened my eyes as to how integral the festivals are to Islam and Moroccan culture, important as not only religious, but as family celebrations. So, I made the decision in future years to close the hotel for five to seven days around the festivals, even if it was a popular time for tourists. Why not three days? Well, although Morocco follows the Gregorian calendar, Ramadan starts according to the traditional Islamic lunar character, so it is not certain the exact day when the months will start or end. I still stick by this, and the staff are motivated rather than moody as the festivals approach.
What strategies do you employ to foster a culturally sensitive environment within your team or organization?
Where possible, we ask the manager to talk to the clients about their cultures, countries and general background. This not only helps understand the guest or the nationality, but encourages them to respond by the asking questions about Morocco and its culture — even if it is simple matter of ‘How do I bargain in the souks?’
How do you handle situations where cultural misunderstandings or conflicts arise in the workplace?
It may sound banal, but with diplomacy. If the conflict or misunderstanding is between guests and staff, I hear both sides, explain and mediate so no-one is upset. Day to day, it is essential to listen to the team to ensure there are no crossed wires. Along with this, it is essential to consider Moroccan business culture. Greetings are an elaborate exchange of pleasantries — saying just ‘hi’ is impolite. Usually very easy going, Moroccans do not like confrontation or signs of confrontation, such as standing talking to them with your arms folded across your chest or getting right to the point American style. Issues are generally resolved by sitting down for a roundabout chat, asking questions rather than making assumptions. Hierarchy in the workplace is also important. We had a situation where our manager and assistant had an excellent working relationship until the assistant discovered that he was one month older than the manager, so left as he wasn’t going to take orders from a ‘junior.’ After a few trials and error on the same theme with the housekeepers, we now employ a senior housekeeper with her daughter-in-law as her assistant, which is a natural hierarchy of respect in Moroccan society. Here, I am reminded of the case of their uniform, tunic and trousers, which they helped chose. Yet when it arrived, they refused point blank to wear it, even though they were legally obliged to if the business so decrees. I felt exasperated and even my manager was baffled, but try as we did to probe why, they were not forthcoming with a reason. I decided not to force the issue to avoid any conflict. We then heard they complained to the housekeeper from a neighboring guest house, discovering that the uniforms, unbeknown to me, had arrived with mobcaps which they thought were to replace their headscarf, the hijab. They had felt uncomfortable mentioning it directly as they wrongly presumed that I — as a non-Muslim — had ordered the mobcaps in a plot to force them to remove their headscarves at work. I swiftly removed the mobcaps from sight, and the next day they appeared in uniform. But over and above that, I tried to improve the emotional environment so that the employees could express their views openly on any subject.
Ok super. Here is the main question of our interview. Based on your experience and research, can you please share “5 Reasons Why Cultural Sensitivity is So Important in Business?” If you can, please share a story or an example for each.
- Cultural sensitivity leads to better client trust and satisfaction — This is extremely important in the hospitality industry because, as I mentioned earlier, good review scores and rankings generate bookings. Additionally, for many clients it is their first time visiting North Africa or an Arab country. Creating a calm, welcoming atmosphere within the establishment is crucial to put them at ease and content to go off, explore and enjoy their holiday in Morocco’s ‘Red City,’ knowing the hotel is an oasis to return to.
- It creates a positive workplace where the staff feel valued — Cultural sensitivity improves employee satisfaction, engagement and productivity. As much of the year I manage the riad remotely, this is vital for me, as it prevents staff turnover. Finding the right manager is no easy task, as looking after a riad for an owner who semi-absent is a big responsibility. A manager is the ‘face’ of the riad, so needs to be educated, well-presented, good with guests, have pride in the business and some diplomatic skills. Conversely, it is important the guests feel valued too. This starts before arrival with me responding helpfully to their initial booking request. Adding all these factors together helps promote an environment where many guests will tip the staff before departure, which is not only pleasing, but a sign of satisfaction with the service during their stay, contributing to employee loyalty and retention.
- Cultural sensitivity can help broaden market reach — A young woman from Switzerland booked into the riad for 12 days. However, on arrival in Morocco, she had complete culture shock, did not want to leave our property, and contacted me to help her find a plane back to Geneva the following day. Luckily, my nineteen-year-old daughter was at the hotel at the time. After listening sympathetically to her perspective, she explained how she and her sister had been walking by themselves in Marrakech since they were in their early teens, and next day, accompanied her, showing the best routes to follow in the old city, discussing local culture as she went, and introducing her to one or two Moroccan shopkeepers we use and who had known my daughter for years. The young woman stayed, soon confident enough to head off on her own for a day or going out to a restaurant in the evening. After the twelve days, she became emotional at having to leave, and started crying. This had a chain reaction. The young woman returned the following year with two friends, one of whom came back with her extended family, and a brother later booked the entire riad for a retreat, its marketing ultimately leading to more bookings from similar groups in Europe.
- Building a workforce ready for challenges — This is important. In hospitality, all types of challenges can arise — a delayed plane or long immigration queue requiring the manager to wait past midnight to meet guests, or alternatively walk clients to an airport transfer at four in the morning. The housekeepers can find themselves unable to finish making the rooms as they are waiting for guests to have breakfast. Rarely, a double booking can occur, and some guests can be difficult or stressed during their stay. A major challenge was Covid-19 and the economic shutdown. The borders were closed for 20 months and likewise, the hotel. Moroccan social security paid a proportion of the staff salary, but I had a contingency fund, and topped up the salaries up as I was aware the staff still had financial obligations, and it would help with their mental well-being. Although I kept in touch with the manager, I wondered what I would find when I returned. Without any obligation to do so, the staff had worked out a roster to socially distance from each other and ensured the hotel was immaculate.
- Better decision making — Unconscious bias or prejudice can lead to unfavorable decisions in the workplace. This applies to me, the staff or the guests. Here, I might focus on cultural sensitivity from a generational point of view. I am a least a generation older than my manager. If he gives me some advice I don’t like or seems strange, do I say to myself, ‘He’s just a kid — what does he know?’ Yet, from a Moroccan perspective he may be right and might be offering an innovate idea. Alternatively, if he has doubts, because of the society’s respect for their elders, should he just do what I say without question?
A housekeeper joined us in her late forties and worked for us for over ten years. She had a strong work ethic, was dedicated, and put in long hours despite our protests about doing so. The manager she worked with for several years had the same mindset, and a presence throughout the day and part of the evening, taking the time to sit and chat, or eat lunch together. However, he left to set up a small software company with a friend, replaced by a much younger manager. Fast paced, he zoomed in the morning, dealt with clients and patiently answered their questions, issued orders to the housekeeper, then disappeared for the day, but returned to spend the evening when the guests were back from sight-seeing. Generally, by the time he returned, the housekeeper had left for home, convinced he wasn’t working. Feeling undervalued, this led to frustration and resentment. Trying to control the situation, she started to refuse to accept his orders. Of course, it was his job to organize the business according to the booking chart, the accounts, and petty cash, but she decided to either be contrary or to do as she pleased, often ignoring him altogether. This led to a catalogue of bad decisions which interfered with the smooth running of the premises, all stemming from a conflict which was basically a generational issue.
In what ways has focusing on cultural sensitivity given your business a competitive edge or opened up new markets?
The guest house/boutique hotel business in the Medina of Marrakech is very competitive, although any rivalry is often friendly. Forewarning clients and answering their questions, alerting staff to potential problems, helps both staff and client to co-exist in a harmonious atmosphere. Our business has high review scores in comparison to other small establishments in Marrakech. This is very heartening especially as I mentioned above, now and again we get marked down for location, or by an overly critical or insensitive guest. Sure, there is always room for improvement, both in the hotel itself and in marketing it. Media, blogs, Face Book, Instagram, influencers, what next? In London, it occurred to my literary agent and me that a murder mystery series in Morocco might be an interesting next step, and I saw it could also indirectly promote the business. The protagonist is a Moroccan/Scot running a guest house who turns detective after a guest is murdered, and I wrote it to highlight various matters of cultural insensitivity, though it runs with an element of humor to heighten the darker side of the mystery. The novel was well received and translated and became the start of a series. It not only introduced the reader to Morocco, but our business in Marrakech, increasing both customer base and occupancy.
You are a person of great influence. If you could start a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. 🙂
A movement promoting the importance of tolerance and embracing world-wide cultural differences in every school curriculum.
How can our readers further follow you online?
My website is www.philipbrebner.com
Thank you for the time you spent sharing these fantastic insights. We wish you only continued success in your great work!
About The Interviewer: Vanessa Ogle is a mom, entrepreneur, inventor, writer, and singer/songwriter. Vanessa’s talent in building world-class leadership teams focused on diversity, a culture of service, and innovation through inclusion allowed her to be one of the most acclaimed Latina CEO’s in the last 30 years. She collaborated with the world’s leading technology and content companies such as Netflix, Amazon, HBO, and Broadcom to bring innovative solutions to travelers and hotels around the world. Vanessa is the lead inventor on 120+ U.S. Patents. Accolades include: FAST 100, Entrepreneur 360 Best Companies, Inc. 500 and then another six times on the Inc. 5000. Vanessa was personally honored with Inc. 100 Female Founder’s Award, Ernst and Young’s Entrepreneur of the Year Award, and Enterprising Women of the Year among others. Vanessa now spends her time sharing stories to inspire and give hope through articles, speaking engagements and music. In her spare time she writes and plays music in the Amazon best selling new band HigherHill, teaches surfing clinics, trains dogs, and cheers on her children.
Please connect with Vanessa here on linkedin and subscribe to her newsletter Unplugged as well as follow her on Substack, Instagram, Facebook, and X and of course on her website VanessaOgle.
Philip Brebner of Riad Porte Royale Marrakech On Why Cultural Sensitivity Matters in Business was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.