An Interview With Vanessa Ogle
…Self Knowledge. Encourage leaders and employees to develop self-awareness through Emotional Intelligence programs. Offer training in tools like the Enneagram and Fascinate to help team members understand their strengths, motivations, and stress triggers. When employees understand their core drivers — such as a need for achievement or a preference for collaboration — they’re better equipped to bring their authentic selves to work and are more open for productive conversation…
Toxic work environments can have a significant impact on employees’ mental health, productivity, and overall job satisfaction. From poor communication and office politics to bullying and burnout, toxicity in the workplace can manifest in many forms. What are the most effective strategies to address and overcome these challenges? How can organizations and employees work together to create healthier, more supportive work environments? In this interview series, we are talking with with leaders, HR professionals, organizational psychologists, business leaders, and experts about “Navigating Workplace Toxicity: Strategies for a Healthier Work Environment.” As a part of this series, I had the pleasure of interviewing Hillarie Kay.
Hillarie Kay is a corporate coach, trainer, speaker and author of The Burnout Recovery System. She helps high achieving entrepreneurs and teams increase performance while avoiding burnout using heart centered strategy.
Thank you so much for doing this with us! Before we dig in, our readers would like to get to know you a bit more. Can you tell us a bit about your “backstory”? What led you to this particular career path?
I’m a wife, mom of two boys, stepmom to three, and a lover of all things ’60s and ’70s. Outside of work you’ll find me at my kids’ games, concerts, or thrifting for vintage treasures.
Instead of a life story, I’ll take you straight to the moment when burnout and toxicity took over my life, hoping you’ll understand why I’m so passionate about this work.
Years ago, a doctor brushed off my panic attack (which I thought was a heart attack) with, “You just need some rest.” I was the breadwinner, juggling a high-stress job, kids, and several personal crises.
I tried changing everything — jobs, relationships, habits — only to find myself back at square one. The common advice of “just rest” wasn’t cutting it.
Then I found a tool that changed my life- the Enneagram. While digging into information on my type, I read one line that struck deep: Core Fear: FAILURE and being seen as WORTHLESS. I realized I wasn’t just seeking success; I was dependent on it. That was the root of my burnout and how I kept getting myself into toxic situations.
Determined to understand why, I dove deeper into the system, uncovering my motivations, fears, and stress triggers. Slowly, my anxiety decreased, and I could finally be present with my kids. After years of personal success, I started sharing my findings, coaching and training teams from Start Ups to Fortune 100 industry giants on how to use this tool to build sustainable lives and teams. Free of burnout and toxicity.
Can you share the most interesting story that happened to you since you began your career?
Honestly, the most interesting thing is that there have been a lot of surprise opportunities. The pivotal changes in my career were not the ones that were planned. They were ones that just happened to me. It is a good lesson that so much of what has unfolded in my career is not necessarily by the “planned” strategy. It has been more about the randomness (and value) of connections. If you had told me when I started my marketing agency, that in three years I wouldn’t be in marketing, and then showed me what I was doing now, I would have laughed. But now, I cannot imagine ever going back.
Can you share a story about the funniest mistake you made when you were first starting?
I’ve never been the type to find mistakes funny — at least, not at the time they happen. But looking back, I’ve learned to find the humor in some of the messes I’ve made. The benefit of hindsight, reflection, and all that.
There’s one moment that sticks with me. I was giving a training presentation. Everything was fine until — boom — the internet cut out. Instant panic. Total meltdown. I’m frantically texting my husband, who is a tech genius by the way, demanding he fix it. Why is the internet not working?! It felt like the world was crumbling in real time. Sweat accumulated in all the places, the feeling of nausea ever present in my stomach. After what seemed like an eternity, I finally got back online, but I was so rattled, I could barely string together a sentence. I’m talking about full-on flustered, face flushed, on the verge of tears. I swear I thought I was going to throw up in front of everyone.
I didn’t (thank God!).The team lead was an absolute rock star. They just calmly said, “No problem. This happens with virtual training. Take your time.” I was stunned. Take my time? You mean I’m not being judged for being a disaster right now? I think that moment was one of the first times I realized how hard I am on myself. I’m beating myself up, thinking I’ve blown it, and here’s this person just… offering grace.
I look back on that and (kind of) laugh. But I definitely smile.
Can you tell us what lesson you learned from that?
That moment taught me something: the world is a lot kinder than I give it credit for. People are usually more understanding than I give them credit for. In the end, I got through the training. And now, when I think about that day, I can laugh at myself. I no longer see it as a screw-up; I see it as a lesson in grace — both from others and from myself. We don’t always get things perfect, and that’s okay. The truth is, we’re all human. And most of the time, people aren’t watching for our failures — they’re rooting for us to succeed, or at the very least, they’re forgiving when we don’t. It’s been moments like that one that have shifted how I view mistakes. Instead of drowning in self-criticism, I’m learning to laugh it off. Fail fast. Because if you’re not allowed to fail, you’re not really allowed to grow either. And you can’t grow if you don’t cut yourself some slack.
Is there a particular book that made a significant impact on you?
Absolutely. Think Again by Adam Grant.
Can you share a story or explain why it resonated with you so much?
This book challenged me in ways I didn’t expect. It made me realize that it’s okay for my opinion to shift over time. Changing my mind doesn’t undermine my credibility — it actually strengthens it. Why? Because it shows I’m evolving, learning, and adapting. It means I’m listening, not stuck in some rigid, one-dimensional version of myself. In the end it’s that flexibility, that willingness to reconsider, that makes me a better leader. And that’s what real growth looks like — being open enough to change your perspective when new information or experiences call for it. It’s not weakness; it’s wisdom.
Do you have a favorite “Life Lesson Quote”?
Yep! “Don’t let the fear of striking out keep you from playing the game.”
Do you have a story about how that was relevant in your life or your work?
I first heard that line back in junior high — yeah, definitely giving away my millennial status here. It was in A Cinderella Story, with Hilary Duff and Chad Michael Murray. Just a quick throwaway line in the movie, but it hit me like a ton of bricks. I ended up putting it up on my bulletin board as a constant reminder to push through my fear of failure. Back then, if I didn’t already know I was going to crush something, I wouldn’t even bother trying. I had this all-or-nothing mentality: I needed to be perfect from the jump or it wasn’t worth the effort.
As I’ve climbed through my career, that quote has followed me. Every time you level up, it gets scarier. I’ve caught myself, more times than I care to admit, backing off from something because I was worried I wouldn’t be the best — or because I feared failure. There’s always been this love-hate relationship with success and failure. Every time I hit that wall, that quote pops back into my head. And I think, Man, teenage me would be proud of how far I’ve come.
Striking out isn’t failure. It’s an opportunity to adjust. And that’s what I’ve learned, both in life and in business. When things don’t go according to plan, it doesn’t mean I’ve failed — it means I need to pivot, reassess, and keep moving forward. It’s not about being perfect; it’s about adjusting, growing, and staying in the game.
Ok, thank you for that. Let’s now jump to the primary focus of our interview. Let’s start with a simple definition so that all of us are on the same page. What does workplace toxicity mean?
At its core, workplace toxicity comes down to leadership — or people within the team — lacking emotional intelligence. When that’s missing, it creates a poisonous environment. People don’t feel safe, they don’t feel secure, and that stifles growth. It blocks progress before it even has a chance to take root. Instead of collaboration, you’re dealing with constant friction, drama, and unnecessary conflict. Without psychological safety, it’s like trying to build something on a foundation of quicksand — nothing sticks, nothing lasts. It’s a toxic cycle that wears everyone down, and no one wins.
Can you describe a time when you personally encountered or helped resolve workplace toxicity?
A lot of the time, when I’m working with teams, the root issue is burnout. They’re drained, they’re stuck, and they’re not performing at the level they need to be. One of the biggest contributors to that burnout? A toxic work environment. It’s like trying to sprint in quicksand. So, one of the ways I help teams push through this is by using an exercise called Intent vs. Impact. The goal is simple: to get people to reflect on how they communicate — how they say things, how they enter a room, and how their energy lands on the team.
Intent doesn’t always match impact. And that’s where a lot of the friction comes from. People don’t necessarily intend to cause harm, but the effect of their words or actions can still hurt. The key is getting people to understand that both sides matter. When you have an open dialogue about intent versus impact, it opens up space for empathy. And that? That’s how you start to lower the tension, break down walls, and shift the energy in a room.
A specific team I’ve worked with comes to mind. It had a lot of strong personalities. Most of their meetings were full of tension — people didn’t feel safe. They couldn’t speak up about concerns because it felt like anything they said would be thrown back in their faces. The team leader had the foresight to realize that this was a psychological safety issue, and more importantly, a lack of emotional intelligence. So, they brought me in to help. What we discovered was that the real issue wasn’t about bringing up the problems — it was about how the problems were being raised.
One of the biggest culprits of the toxic environment was communication. It was clear that the intent and the impact weren’t aligning. We had the team go through a self-evaluation process. I asked them to reflect on how they were communicating, what their intent was when they spoke, and how they thought it landed on others. Then, I asked the team to be honest — did the intent match the impact? What we found was eye-opening: when they started to openly talk about these mismatches, it created empathy. Instead of building resentment and friction, we started working on understanding how each person communicated — and why. That made it possible for them to have more productive conversations without the toxicity that usually comes with misunderstandings.
What were the key signs that the environment was toxic?
This team was like many others I’ve seen — people checking out, tuning out, or straight-up shutting down in meetings. The energy in the room goes flat, people aren’t contributing, and the focus is less on the work and more on personal beliefs. It’s like the task at hand gets buried under a pile of petty drama and unresolved issues. But here’s the thing — when the personal disputes start outweighing the actual goals, it’s a sign that something deeper is going on.
Another layer of that toxicity often comes from people not understanding or acknowledging each other’s work values. Friction is inevitable when people don’t know what drives their coworkers or what’s truly important to them. We all have different things that matter at work. And when you’re open to understanding what those things are, you can find ways to reduce the friction. It’s about identifying the common ground and getting ahead of the inevitable clashes by aligning on values. When you align on work values, you can clear the path for more productive collaboration — and eliminate some of that toxic energy.
Think of it like this: Our values are the framework of how we work. They create our metaphorical field. Imagine one person is playing baseball rules, and another is playing football on the same field. The game is going to be chaotic. But if they can align on the rules of the game — the work values — they can work together toward the same goal.
I’ll give you an example: One type of personality might be laser-focused on precision. They need everything done with a very high level of perfection before it’s considered “final” — even if that means pushing back a deadline. They would rather miss the deadline than deliver something less than perfect. On the flip side, there’s someone who values quality, but they’re more focused on pushing initiatives forward — even if things aren’t perfect — because meeting goals and deadlines matters more. The irony is, despite their different approaches, both of them share one common value: they’re committed to meeting high standards and achieving goals. If they can find alignment on that goal — that is where the magic happens. It reduces the tension, and ultimately, the toxicity. It’s about finding common ground on the endgame, and then navigating the differences in how they get there. Once they’re aligned on the goal, the friction that usually causes burnout, frustration, and toxicity starts to melt away. And that’s how you turn a toxic environment into a place where people can thrive.
What are some of the most common causes of toxic work environments, and how can leaders recognize these issues before they become pervasive?
One of the biggest reasons teams experience a toxic environment is a serious lack of emotional intelligence. When that’s missing, team members don’t feel safe. Simple as that. And you can spot the lack of emotional intelligence in all kinds of ways: people refusing to take ownership of their actions, always pointing fingers, and passing blame around like a hot potato. If your meetings are more about, he said, she said, and personal drama instead of actual work — guess what? That’s a red flag.
You start seeing this cycle — high conflict, followed by silence. People stop speaking up. They hold back. And let’s be clear, conflict isn’t inherently bad. It’s natural, it happens. The problem comes when that conflict turns toxic — when the team can’t have productive conversations anymore. That’s when the dysfunction sets in, and leaders need to be paying attention. If you’re seeing the signs — people shutting down, not engaging, avoiding tough conversations — don’t ignore it. These aren’t just symptoms, they’re warnings. When a team can’t safely navigate conflict, it’s a sign that the emotional intelligence and psychological safety are missing, and that’s when the real work of rebuilding needs to begin.
What steps can employees take to address workplace toxicity if they feel uncomfortable or unsupported by leadership?
If you’re feeling unsupported by leadership, the first thing you need to do is get clear on this: no job is worth your peace. The stress, the burnout — it’s not the price you should have to pay. Start by reconnecting with yourself and figuring out what you actually want from a work environment. What does it look like to feel fulfilled, balanced, at ease? If you can get there within your current role, great. But if not, then maybe it’s time to look deeper.
Take an honest energy inventory. Look holistically at your life. Which activities fuel you? What drains you? If work is doing all the taking, then it’s time to make some changes — whether that means setting boundaries, reevaluating your workload, or finding ways to feed your energy in ways that go beyond traditional self-care. This might mean prioritizing what truly revitalizes you, whether it’s creative hobbies, time with loved ones, or even just some time to breathe.
If the situation calls for a discussion with HR, go in prepared. It’s essential to bring more than feelings alone; combine them with facts. Approach HR not with vague frustrations but with clarity: “This is what I’m feeling, and here are the specific examples that show why.” If you don’t have concrete examples yet, it might be a little early for that conversation. Make sure you have both the facts and the feelings aligned — because your well-being is worth the effort to set things right.
What role does mental health play in navigating workplace toxicity, and how can both employees and organizations prioritize mental wellness?
Mental health is everything. Especially if you’re in a toxic work environment, you’ve got to put yourself first — because here’s the truth: if you’re not taking care of your mental health, no one else is going to do it for you. This means stepping up for yourself, managing your energy, and getting real about what drives you, what motivates you, and what you genuinely want out of your career. You have to be intentional about feeding what fuels you, not just surviving day by day in a draining environment.
For companies that genuinely want to support their employees, investing in Emotional Intelligence programs is essential. I personally bring tools like the Enneagram and Fascinate into the workplace because they do more than just “boost morale” — they give leaders insight into how to really see and understand their people. These tools provide a framework for leaders to grasp what makes each team member tick, how they respond to stress, and where friction is likely to build up.
But here’s the thing: if you’re in an environment that needs change, you can’t just jump in with fixes. Yes, you know it’s toxic, and yes, you want it to improve. But first, you have to observe. Step back and look at what’s really going on — objectively. Take stock of yourself and everyone else involved. You need that level of understanding if you’re going to create meaningful, lasting change. When you know yourself and can understand those around you, you can start to see where the disconnects lie. Only then, after a period of thoughtful observation, can you move toward real change.
The Enneagram, for instance, dives deep into the “why” behind the “what.” It’s not just about identifying behaviors but understanding what’s driving them. Why does one person need to control every detail, while another seems distant and uninvested? It uncovers the motivations fueling these actions, the fears, the desires, the core impulses that make us all tick. Knowing this, you can see your coworkers, and yourself, from a new perspective. It’s not about labeling anyone; it’s about grasping the roots of behavior so you can approach challenges with empathy and insight.
Then there’s Fascinate. This tool is a game-changer because it flips the script on how we view ourselves in the workplace. Instead of feeling the pressure to change who you are to “fit in” or match some ideal, Fascinate teaches you to lean into your natural strengths, to truly own how you’re perceived. It’s all about highlighting your unique advantages. Fascinate guides you to see that the very things you might have felt self-conscious about can be your strongest assets. Your quirks, your ways of thinking, your style of communicating — they all become strengths when you know how to leverage them.
Can you share some strategies or practices that individuals and teams can implement to create a healthier and more productive work environment? Please share your “5 Strategies For A Healthier Work Environment”?
Creating a healthier and more productive work environment can be achieved with the following five strategies:
Strategy 1: Self Knowledge
Encourage leaders and employees to develop self-awareness through Emotional Intelligence programs. Offer training in tools like the Enneagram and Fascinate to help team members understand their strengths, motivations, and stress triggers. When employees understand their core drivers — such as a need for achievement or a preference for collaboration — they’re better equipped to bring their authentic selves to work and are more open for productive conversation.
Strategy 2: Social Knowledge
Cultivate an understanding of collective work values and team dynamics to enhance collaboration and mutual respect. Facilitate team discussions around shared values and how each person’s strengths support the larger mission. For instance, a team might uncover that their common values are transparency and growth. This knowledge helps align individual contributions with team goals and fosters a unified approach to challenges, ensuring everyone feels connected to the purpose behind their work.
Strategy 3: Self Observation
Help employees become more aware of how they show up in the workplace, emphasizing the importance of observing their own behaviors and reactions. You can use an “Intent vs. Impact” reflection exercise. Encourage employees to reflect on how they communicate and to assess whether their intent aligns with the impact they have on others. This exercise is especially effective for identifying triggers or unconscious patterns that may hinder productivity or morale, allowing employees to make adjustments in real-time.
Strategy 4: Social Observation
Develop the team’s ability to observe group dynamics objectively, identifying patterns that might affect collaboration or morale. Create space for team members to discuss what they notice in meetings, such as whether certain communication styles dominate or if some voices are less heard. Observing these dynamics can reveal opportunities to foster more balanced participation, improving empathy and reducing misunderstandings.
Strategy 5: Productive Change
Foster flexibility and adaptability, creating boundaries and structures based on each team member’s unique operating system. Establish boundaries like “no meetings” blocks or encourage flexibility in work hours, tailored to the team’s rhythms and needs. For instance, if a team values quiet, focused work time, consider blocking off mornings for deep work and limiting check-ins to afternoons. By aligning the environment with individual and group operating styles, teams can adapt to change with less friction and greater engagement.
You are a person of great influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good for the greatest number of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger.
If I could spark a movement, it would be all about radical acceptance. And I don’t mean the kind that’s just about “tolerating” differences or putting up with imperfections. I’m talking about a deep, unapologetic acceptance of who we are, as we are, and a complete embrace of the people around us in that same light. Imagine if we could strip away the need to constantly prove ourselves, to “fix” others, or to fit into boxes that were never made for us in the first place. Radical acceptance challenges the relentless push for perfection and, instead, roots us in the idea that we’re enough — even with the messiness, even with the contradictions.
This movement would empower people to own their quirks, mistakes, strengths, and all those parts of themselves that they’ve been told aren’t “good enough.” It’s not about becoming complacent or not striving for growth — it’s about growing from a place of honesty rather than shame. And if enough of us could learn to accept ourselves and others fully, think about the ripple effect that could have. Workplaces would become more enjoyable and less cut throat, relationships more genuine, and people would finally feel free to show up authentically, without apology.
Radical acceptance wouldn’t just heal individuals; it would transform communities. It would normalize showing up as you are, imperfect and in-progress. And that, I believe, is where real connection and change begin.
We are very blessed that some very prominent names in Business, VC funding, Sports, and Entertainment read this column. Is there a person in the world, or in the US with whom you would love to have a private breakfast or lunch with, and why? He or she might just see this if we tag them.
Adam Grant and Jenna Bush Hager.
Adam Grant has really pushed me to think outside my usual framework. His work has profoundly shaped how I approach team dynamics and how I understand people — especially with his insight into how societal shifts influence the way we operate. Adam’s always on top of the latest research, and he has this incredible way of flipping conventional thinking on its head. I’d love to sit down with him; even just through his books and podcast interviews, I’ve gained so much that I’d jump at the chance for a real conversation.
Then there’s Jenna Bush Hager. Over the years, she’s someone who’s truly embraced radical self-acceptance. Her life’s journey has been made up of so many different, maybe even “weird” pieces that don’t all neatly fit together. And yet, she’s leaned into that uniqueness, and it’s made her such a powerful figure in culture and journalism. Jenna’s influence comes from being fully herself, and that’s what makes her so inspiring.
How can our readers further follow your work online?
www.LinkedIn.com/in/hillariekay
Thank you for these fantastic insights. We greatly appreciate the time you spent on this.
About The Interviewer: Vanessa Ogle is a mom, entrepreneur, inventor, writer, and singer/songwriter. Vanessa’s talent in building world-class leadership teams focused on diversity, a culture of service, and innovation through inclusion allowed her to be one of the most acclaimed Latina CEO’s in the last 30 years. She collaborated with the world’s leading technology and content companies such as Netflix, Amazon, HBO, and Broadcom to bring innovative solutions to travelers and hotels around the world. Vanessa is the lead inventor on 120+ U.S. Patents. Accolades include: FAST 100, Entrepreneur 360 Best Companies, Inc. 500 and then another six times on the Inc. 5000. Vanessa was personally honored with Inc. 100 Female Founder’s Award, Ernst and Young’s Entrepreneur of the Year Award, and Enterprising Women of the Year among others. Vanessa now spends her time sharing stories to inspire and give hope through articles, speaking engagements and music. In her spare time she writes and plays music in the Amazon best selling new band HigherHill, teaches surfing clinics, trains dogs, and cheers on her children.
Please connect with Vanessa here on linkedin and subscribe to her newsletter Unplugged as well as follow her on Substack, Instagram, Facebook, and X and of course on her website VanessaOgle.
Navigating Workplace Toxicity: Author Hillarie Kay On Strategies for a Healthier Work Environment was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.