An Interview With Vanessa Ogle
Make sure women and people of color are not the default for uncompensated labor, such as social committees, event planning, ERG work, and mentoring, among others. Often, this work is disproportionately carried by women in the workplace. This act reinforces gender stereotypes and places extra layers of obligation on the shoulders of women sans the extra layers of pay.
In a world where diversity is often acknowledged but not always celebrated, we are taking a step forward to highlight the importance of inclusivity in building strong, vibrant communities. This series aims to explore the various facets of diversity — be it racial, cultural, gender-based, or within the differently-abled community — and understand how embracing these differences strengthens our social fabric. As part of this series, we had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Kristin Austin.
Dr. Kristin Austin (she/her) serves as VP of I.D.E.As. (Inclusion, Diversity, Equity, & Access) for Rewriting the Code (RTC). Dr. Austin’s goal is to catalyze individuals and structures to question, “Who is at the table? Who is missing from the table? For whom was the table built? And who is unaware the table exists?” Dr. Austin has pursued answers to these questions via 23+ years of DEIB-focused experience in multiple higher education and nonprofit settings domestically and internationally. Dr. Austin is committed to disrupting gender and racial inequity in tech by centering the strengths and experiences of RTC’s, Black, Latina, and Native members. In addition to directing RTC’s inclusion-focused programming, she also equips RTC’s 40+ company partners to welcome and retain the next generation of diverse tech talent.
Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series. Before we dive into our discussion about celebrating diversity, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you share with us the backstory about what brought you to your specific career path?
I always knew I wanted to be a “helper,” but I didn’t have a clear idea of what that would look like. In undergrad, I bounced around as an education major, a deaf interpreting major, and even had a sting in communication studies. I felt like Goldilocks trying out different porridge. Eventually, I found my home in the Social Work department, and that was the absolute best decision ever. Ironically, I count my social work degree as one of the top three best decisions of my entire life! It’s truly that big to me. Social work taught me the strategy and frameworks I needed to activate the personal strengths I already had. Those strengths were my unique ability to listen for the unsaid, to observe the unobvious, to generate enthusiasm among skeptics, and to carefully balance the necessity of challenge with the provision of appropriate support. Social work offered the best of everything I wanted to be as a “helper.”
I was also fortunate to have an amazingly fulfilling and active undergraduate experience at Bloomsburg University of Pennsylvania (now named Commonwealth University). There, I was deeply invested in the campus and the campus was equally invested in me. Based on these experiences, I decided I wanted to make a “career out of college,” and to apply my helping gifts in the collegiate environment. Throughout my career, I was fortunate to work on public, private, small, large, domestic, and even international campuses serving undergraduate through professional school students. What I learned in all of these settings is that every student wants to belong, and every student can succeed when they have the requisite tools and environment to do so. This assumption informed all of my work, and somehow, kept leading to me being tapped for, “Hey Kristin, can you add DEI-focus to this initiative?” Ironically, I never saw myself as DEI-focused; I just saw myself as belonging-focused.
Over 20 years later, I can easily look back and see how all of the energy I committed to drawing different identities from the periphery onto centerstage was actually inclusion and equity work as we’ve come to know it today. Small initiatives such as ensuring we provided comprehensive ingredient lists for all food served at events, ensuring we kept a ready supply of kid-friendly activity kits for students who might have little ones unexpectedly in tow, ensuring there was always a well-lit area for low vision or deaf students to engage freely and equally in a campus program, or ensuring all students had the opportunities to engage in leadership opportunities and experiences (often gatekept by those with built-in social capital). Each of these situations represented an opportunity to center someone who had been systemically unseen or excluded.
While advancing from campus to campus and role to role, I also managed to squeeze in a master’s degree in counseling and a doctorate in higher education leadership & administration. Both degrees deepened my love of and proclivity toward helping, listening, learning, and advocacy.
After spending 19+ years on college campuses, and definitely believing I’d retire from one, in 2021, a dear friend from grad school, Jade Bariccelli, who had joined Rewriting the Code (RTC) as its first full-time staff person a few years prior, announced the organization was seeking their inaugural director of D.E.I. Naturally, I got curious. And here is where I should share something really important about me because it’s key to this story. I have ADHD. I love this about myself. Although not without its challenges, I experience ADHD as a beautiful mess energized by spontaneity, strategic risk, and colorful curiosity. Also by this time, I was much more comfortable constantly being tagged as the go-to “DEI person.” Given my confidence, curiosity, and testimony from Jade about RTC’s insanely incredible mission, I felt like taking a risk to step off the college campuses I knew, and into the realm of nonprofit ed-tech. Three years later, I wouldn’t say “the rest is history.” Instead, I’d say, the rest is very much a thriving present and a promising future.
Can you share an interesting or hopeful story where spending time with someone who did not look like you or who was different from you taught you something that has been useful to you?
Yes! This experience happens every day! My 13-year-old daughter is autistic. So every day, I get to experience the world through her kaleidoscopic lens. She is spunky, sassy, creative, brilliant, and will probably become President of the United States one day! She also encounters challenges when expected to behave or conform to the expectations of a neurotypical world. More than seeing her uniqueness, I am exposed to society’s narrow thinking of what is normal, valued, and rewarded. My daughter has a rigid fixation on justice and fairness. If you say you’re going to do something, she completely believes you are going to do that exact thing. This is not an uncommon trait among Autistic individuals, and it’s often one that causes her the most harm since it doesn’t sync with the way the world operates. Although, when you think about it, wouldn’t we all be better off if we had more of this quality, instead of less? Walking through life with her has taught me patience, openness, bravery, and given me comfort in knowing it’s ok if you’re a rose growing in concrete. You’re still a rose, and you’re still growing.
You are a successful leader. Which three character traits do you think were most instrumental to your success? Can you please share a story or example for each?
Gahhhh yes! I love this question!
- Trait One: Don’t be a know-it-all, be a learn-it-all. As a woman, a woman of color, especially, I know that my voice can easily be drowned out by men if I don’t intentionally create space for myself. Therefore, it is essential that I confidently and unapologetically show up and contribute my voice and expertise in a room, but I must also remain in a posture of learning. There’s a saying you may have heard: “If you’re the smartest person in the room, you’re in the wrong room.” I get it, but I also have a tweak. I think it should be, “If you’re the smartest person in the room, then you haven’t given the others a chance to shine.” I think everyone can be the smartest in the room in something. And even if not the smartest, at a minimum, there is something they know more about than you. When I work with students who are half my age, I make sure they know I value and prioritize their expertise in things like social media, messaging, or relevant education topics. While I may have more years of experience than them in some areas, they absolutely have more relevant experience than me in others. Girl math here says, “It’s not always how much you know, but what is the usefulness of what you know.”
- Trait two: Ironically, my non-competitive nature is my secret leadership superpower. Because I am not motivated by “winning,” it’s inauthentic for me to motivate others through a competition mindset. Instead, I choose collaboration over competition, and I count my wins based on how those on the team grew, achieved personal goals, or created impact. A win for me is the collection of interpersonal gains that impact the overall outcome. Maybe we didn’t land the biggest grant, or maybe we didn’t get recognized for this program, but if someone on my team spearheaded their first project, facilitated their first external-facing meeting, or self-advocated for a priority they believed in, those wins mean everything to me. In my experience, the more people feel empowered in their individual roles, the better they will contribute and perform. The other benefit of cultivating collaboration over competition is people feel empowered to take risks and make mistakes. For me, in an overly competitive environment, everything is about perfection and not coming in second. I think there is value in second place, and there is immense learning in fifth place. So for me, the traditional standard of “wins” might be achieved a bit slower, but the more pressing wins of psychological safety, belonging, retention, and growth come faster, and those gains are invaluable to me. I also believe you can find competitors anywhere, but you can’t find true teammates anywhere.
- Treat people how they want to be treated, not how you want to be treated. All of us grew up hearing, “Treat people the way you want to be treated.” That’s not bad advice, but it’s also a bit incomplete. Treating people the way you want to be treated centers your own values, biases, needs, and assumptions. However, treating people how they want to be treated lets them know you see them, and you recognize that their values and needs matter too. In leadership, this looks like understanding that not everyone wants to engage in small talk to build rapport. Not everyone enjoys public praise, and not everyone best communicates their ideas verbally, or during rapid-fire brainstorming sessions. As you learn these things about yourself and your team, you have a unique opportunity to cultivate an environment where certain personalities or abilities are deified while others are marginalized.
Ok, thank you for that. Let’s now jump to the primary focus of our interview. Can you share a personal story that highlights the impact of diversity and inclusivity in your life or career?
In addition to having ADHD, I’m also learning disabled. My learning disability is called dyscalculia and falls within the sibling group of dyslexia and dysgraphia. In its most basic terms, having dyscalculia means my brain does not interpret, compute, or recognize numbers as usable information. And to be specific, for me, this includes money, measurements, time, distance, weight, speed, counting, calculating, multiplication, division, percentages, and even reading and writing numbers. So to say it’s a lot… it’s a LOT.
Living with this processing disorder impacts every moment of my day. If I had an understanding of percentages, here is where I would quantify for you exactly what percentage of my day it impacts! Dyscalculia disrupts my ability to stay on schedule since I never know if 10 minutes or one hour has elapsed, pour milk into cereal since I can’t “eyeball” how much is needed in relation to the cereal, what time to leave the house to account for traffic and distance, and also my work, since so much of work is based on understanding data. Knowing what my learning difference means for me gives opens an immense amount of empathy for the struggles others experience, even if their struggles are different from mine. I know what it’s like to have to work four times harder to keep up in a class or a meeting. I know what it’s like to feel unsmart or unconfident. I know what it’s like to have to rely on assistive technology. I know what it’s like to not be understood by the world around you. Worst, I know what it’s like for people to equate my level of intelligence based on my lack of ability to do mental money math while making a small purchase.
These experiences keep me humble and curious. I constantly want to hold people and systems accountable for inequitable expectations while also ensuring the table is built for everyone. This value directs how I work, parent, partner, show up, and how I self-care. All of it is based on inclusion.
How do you approach and manage the challenges that arise when working towards creating more inclusive communities?
It’s buy-in. Always. I woo skeptics and nay-sayers by showing them directly how they have benefitted from unearned privilege, how they have leveraged accommodations (such as ramps, elevators, text messaging, calculators, hand railings, etc.), and how they, too, have experienced ‘isms’, often without realizing it. There are several pretty vanilla examples I can tip-toe into the water with, just to get people warmed up. Things like, “What would your life be like if I asked you to navigate it without wearing your glasses (or contacts)?” Since so many people wear glasses, this is typically something they can immediately identify with. This exercise often sets the table such that folks are willing to at least take a seat. Once they are at the table, applying a non-shaming appetizer is the next step. Soon, we’re managing challenges, learning, and unlearning.
People get defensive about crucial conversations because they don’t want to be labeled as anything ending in “ist.” I get this. We all get this. So we shouldn’t ignore it, we should lean into that valid concern. They also get defensive because they have a wholly inaccurate understanding and assumption of what privilege actually is. I think society has weaponized the word quite a bit, so it turns people off. I’ll lead fun experiences like a privilege BINGO, or a privilege dating app. Suddenly, everyone is laughing while learning, and they are far more willing to have hard conversations. I know many DEI advocates don’t take this approach. They may be more inclined to enact a direct, firm, and “know better, do better” philosophy. I wouldn’t say they are wrong. I would say that approach isn’t natural for me, so I do what aligns with my personality and audience, and they do what aligns with theirs. I think there are many, many routes to managing challenges and we don’t all have to take the same path.
What innovative strategies or initiatives have you implemented or observed that effectively promote the importance of diversity and inclusivity?
More so than innovative, I have implemented inclusion-oriented strategies. Due to the vile and unfathomable enslavement of my Black African ancestors, most of my genealogy is not recorded in the form of dignity and achievement, as is the case for other racial groups. Instead, my Black African ancestors are documented as goods of only physical value. Therefore, I claim the atrocities they criminally survived as the true inaugural point of innovation. What I do and how I think today, are based on how my ancestors innovated- survived– back then. To me, innovation is taking nothing, and making it into something that actually impacts generations. True innovation was using gospel songs and drums to create life-sustaining language and communication. True innovation was quilt-making as a way to craft maps and routes to liberation.
That said, I think what I practice or lean into now isn’t necessarily innovative, but it can still be impactful. Unlike my ancestors, today’s society has access to every single tool and education opportunity necessary to be inclusive. Thus, I think my unique contribution is making sure people are self-aware of such tools, and understand the importance of activating these opportunities and resources. This looks like equipping folks with the ability and willingness to recognize implicit bias, empowering individuals to disrupt inequality within their spheres of influence, demonstrating how one can leverage their individual privilege on behalf of someone who has less privilege, and commitment to the ongoing dismantling of systemic tools of oppression. The more people understand these actions, I think the more effective our individual — and collective — impact will be. So innovative, not to me? But impactful, yes to me and for everyone.
In your opinion, what are the key elements that make a workplace truly inclusive, and how can these be fostered on a larger scale?
A few come to mind. These include:
- Allowing people to show up in the ways they feel most empowered or confident.
- Hiring and promoting from a perspective of culture add versus culture fit.
- Deconstructing supremacist standards of professionalism.
These three things would revolutionize inclusion in the workplace, and would quickly scale. Although it’s true that culture change is the hardest change, sometimes, it just takes one leader to make a bold organizational decision.
Based on your experience and research, can you please share “5 Ways We Can Build Inclusive Communities”?
1 . Allowing people to show up in the ways they feel most empowered and comfortable, regardless of whether how they present aligns with how you feel most empowered and comfortable. I like to call this “deconstructed professionalism.” An example of this would be… if an individual chooses to wear nail polish to work, unless there is a safety reason nail polish should not be worn, then no one, including a masculine-presenting individual, should be judged, marginalized, or discriminated against just because they like nail polish. Besides, we all need more color in our lives, don’t we!?
2 . Regularly audit organizations from an equity perspective, not necessarily a satisfaction perspective. For example, instead of asking employees how satisfied they are with their work, ask how included they feel in workplace culture, norms, and visibility.
3 . Incentivize and reward team members for expanding their learning in and around cultural diversity. Similar to how some rewards programs offer health & wellness challenges, consider cultural “humility challenges” too.
4 . Make sure women and people of color are not the default for uncompensated labor, such as social committees, event planning, ERG work, and mentoring, among others. Often, this work is disproportionately carried by women in the workplace. This act reinforces gender stereotypes and places extra layers of obligation on the shoulders of women sans the extra layers of pay.
5 . Recognize and mitigate gender bias in performance evaluations and career development plans. Women are more likely to have career opportunities impacted by caregiving responsibilities, and as such, experience more career “stop outs” than male identities. It is important to create workplaces that provide scaffolded and caregiver-affirming return-to-work programs that allow a woman to ascend in her career at a competitive pace of her equally (or lesser) skilled male counterparts.
How do you measure the impact and success of diversity and inclusion efforts, and what changes have you seen as a result of these initiatives?
I measure success by features such as employee satisfaction, fulfillment with work, promotion paths (and not just lateral), and talent retention. I also measure success by the amount of healthy conflict that exists within the team. Colleagues who feel psychologically safe have no hesitation in raising healthy conflict. Further, when employees can convey personal meaning to their work, and can articulate a career development plan that is personalized, rather than standardized, For example, I once supervised an employee who was also a mom to two small children. While she had the managerial and leadership skills to promote within the organization, she knew that promotion also meant more demands and less flexibility. Rather than “punishing” this team member who didn’t want to move laterally, she and I worked together to customize a promotion plan that allowed her to work in other units of the organization, which allowed her to broaden her skills capacity, making her more likely to feel the reward of skill development, without the pressure of it being strictly hierarchical.
You are a person of great influence. If you could start a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. 🙂
I would love to create a bartering-centered community where everyone, regardless of ability, could barter for goods and services. I love the philosophy behind barter economies and I engage in them regularly. It makes people feel like their skills and talents matter, rather than their degree, income level, or last name. Recently, I met a single mom trying to upskill in the workplace. She needed a new resume to make her more attractive to more sustainable roles. I also had a bookcase that I had been grimacing about putting together so it sat, mockingly, in my office in its original box for at least three months. The mom needed a resume, and I needed a bookcase. We bartered. She put the bookcase together, and I created a beautiful new resume for her. No cash was exchanged, but a lot of care was.
How can our readers further follow you online?
I’m a Millennial dinosaur so I don’t use X, Instagram, or TikTok (unless I’m trying to learn a dance- cringe!). So really, LinkedIn is the only place to find me. I do use Facebook (see Millennial dinosaur), but it’s just the musings of me being an ADHD, learning disabled, faith-filled, struggling wife and mother perspective. So it’s all fun and games, nothing of substance. Once in a while, I’ll make some of my posts public. Otherwise, catch me on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/austinkristin.
Thank you for the time you spent sharing these fantastic insights. We wish you continued success in your great work!
Thank you! It’s been a pleasure to share my work and story!
About The Interviewer: Vanessa Ogle is a mom, entrepreneur, inventor, writer, and singer/songwriter. Vanessa’s talent in building world-class leadership teams focused on diversity, a culture of service, and innovation through inclusion allowed her to be one of the most acclaimed Latina CEO’s in the last 30 years. She collaborated with the world’s leading technology and content companies such as Netflix, Amazon, HBO, and Broadcom to bring innovative solutions to travelers and hotels around the world. Vanessa is the lead inventor on 120+ U.S. Patents. Accolades include: FAST 100, Entrepreneur 360 Best Companies, Inc. 500 and then another six times on the Inc. 5000. Vanessa was personally honored with Inc. 100 Female Founder’s Award, Ernst and Young’s Entrepreneur of the Year Award, and Enterprising Women of the Year among others. Vanessa now spends her time sharing stories to inspire and give hope through articles, speaking engagements and music. In her spare time she writes and plays music in the Amazon best selling new band HigherHill, teaches surfing clinics, trains dogs, and cheers on her children.
Please connect with Vanessa here on linkedin and subscribe to her newsletter Unplugged as well as follow her on Substack, Instagram, Facebook, and X and of course on her website VanessaOgle.
Celebrating Diversity: Dr Kristin Austin On How To Build Inclusive Communities was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.