…Open Your Mind. It goes without saying. You know by now I don’t care if I support your beliefs or not; you should always, I repeat always, have an open mind. I enjoy talking to someone who, just by conversation, makes me smarter. Also, it keeps you from hate…
An upstander is the opposite of a bystander. A bystander is someone who stands by while others are being bullied, maligned, or mistreated. An upstander is someone who stands up to protect and advocate for the victim. We are sadly seeing a surge of hate, both online and in the real world. Many vulnerable minorities feel threatened and under attack. What measures are individuals, communities, and organizations taking to stand up against Antisemitism, Racism, Bigotry, and Hate? In this interview series, we are talking to activists, community leaders, and individuals who are Upstanders against hate to share what they are doing and to inspire others to do the same. As part of this series, we had the pleasure of interviewing Mike Gutter.
Mike Gutter, author of Never Again Still Means Never Again, was raised in a close-knit Jewish community in Columbus, Ohio, and developed strong values and lifelong friendships rooted in his heritage. After co-founding one of the largest recycling companies in the U.S., he transitioned to writing, driven by a desire to address critical social issues. His passion for combating racism and antisemitism stems from personal struggles and his response to events like the tragic antisemitic attack in Pittsburgh. Now living in Houston, Mike is working on a Broadway musical, screenplay, sitcom, and a forthcoming book on the historical and contemporary challenges facing American Jewry.
Thank you so much for doing this with us! Before we dive in, our readers would love to get to know you a bit better. Can you tell us your “Origin Story?” Can you tell us the story of how you grew up?
First, thanks for having me. Second, I have never heard of the word “upstander” in that definition. I will be borrowing it.
I was born and raised in the in the lovely midwestern city of Columbus, OH. I grew up with four very intelligent, tough, opinionated, and beautiful sisters. My Mom passed away when I was 16, which certainly had an impact on my sisters and me.
A few months after graduating from High School, I decided to go to Israel for six weeks…I stayed for three years. The people, the Mediterranean, and what the Israelis did with the land is another example of the toughness, intelligence, and ingenuity of the Israeli people.
Israel’s topography is not much different from that of its neighbors, but it didn’t complain; it fixed it. There is no way and no metric that could possibly convince me that there is a country more educated than Israel.
I came back to Columbus, enrolled at Ohio State University, and started working for a couple of guys in the recycling business. After two years, my future partner’s father started us out with a credit line, but only if we went out on our own. We did and had the business for around 20 years.
Currently, I’m a partner in a soda company, a business I’ve been involved with for roughly 12 years.
Can you share a personal story of how you experienced or encountered antisemitism, racism, bigotry, or hate? How did that experience shape your perception and actions moving forward?
I experienced a little antisemitism when we moved to a new school district when I was in 5th grade, but even then, I knew they were way too ignorant to be called antisemites. A few months later, I became friends with all of them. I never felt any antisemitism growing up. The first bit of antisemitism I truly felt started on October 8th, 2023.
Most of my really good friends growing up were all Jewish, and we lived in Jewish communities. No one was dumb enough to come into our communities espousing any antisemitic remarks. Frankly, Columbus overall had a low tolerance for racism, homophobia, etc., too, so I didn’t see much of that either.
To further answer your question, anything, and I mean anything, I perceive as antisemitic really angers me. Jews in Columbus and worldwide have done nothing but elevate every community we’ve been in–every community. What could my family, my friends, and myself have done that one could justify hate because of our religion?
Answer…nothing, absolutely nothing. I can’t think of one religion on this planet I would try to get my friends and family together to try and figure out ways to eliminate it. Not one. What has Judaism done to one person that would inspire someone/anyone to lash out both physically and verbally to a Jew? It’s so ridiculous to me and highlights the ignorance that anything can happen in “groupthink.”
Can you describe how you or your organization is helping to stand up against hate? What inspired you to take up this cause?
I’m working on some things, which I will happily reveal once they’re confirmed. If I can be a little coy, I cover it a bit in my two books, but I feel we, as Jews, need to get a lot more on the “offensive side of the ball.”
To answer your second question, I have always had problems sleeping. One way that helps is listening to Audiobooks, documentaries, etc. One night, I was listening to something Holocaust-related, and for some reason, that night, when I heard a couple of Nazis babbling about something, it really pissed me off. Mind you, I have heard Nazis speaking many times without it affecting me, but for some reason that night, it did.
When I woke up, I saw an article about that coward in Pittsburgh who killed 11 Jews leaving a synagogue. That morning, I grabbed a pen and paper and started writing.
Can you tell us the most interesting story that happened to you since you began your work as an Upstander?
Yes, and, unfortunately, there has been a lack of people who want to get involved. We, as Jews, have prospered in this country, but I would never apologize for it. We are an educated group that gives more to Tzedakah (charity) than any other religion or culture by a pretty large margin.
We were taught to give at an early age, and the number of Jews and donation amounts is staggering. I bring that up because, along with giving, a lot of Jews are brought up to be very diplomatic and somewhat passive.
It’s very frustrating for me as I understand diplomacy; I’m more like Dalton in “Roadhouse” when he calmly says, “Be nice…until it’s time not to be nice.” I have many examples, but here’s one off the top of my head. If the administration of Universities is not going to protect its Jewish students, then we must. A lot of Universities were past diplomacy and talks and did nothing.
In my opinion, we failed those students. IT IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY AS JEWS TO PROTECT ALL JEWS, PERIOD.
I was disgusted and very disappointed with myself for having done nothing. Every university President and administrator should have been fired or resigned, and every Jewish student, every one of them, should have transferred out. It’s not the University that makes students great; it’s the students that make the Universities.
Could you share an inspiring story that demonstrates the impact your efforts have had on an individual or community?
I haven’t had enough feedback yet to see if the books have had any impact. Now, I already know that anyone who reads one of them will learn a tremendous amount of history and will be well-equipped to win arguments from either a friend or foe.
I also know you could be the most antisemitic, bigot moron in this country, but once you’ve read the entire book, you may attempt to convert.
I have been invited to some homes where I have done Q&As, but I feel this book is more important than that.
In your opinion, why do you think there has been such a surge of antisemitism, racism, bigotry, & hate recently?
There’s always been a very vocal minority of antisemitic behavior. Their antisemitism is based on pure ignorance. They’re mainly fans of Hitler, the SS, etc., and become antisemitic, going down the “Nazi rabbit hole” that others have before them, and are people who are easily indoctrinated.
There may have been a Jew who individually screwed someone over, but Jews overall have not, and do not, go after any of those KKK “wannabes.”
I have never woken up and tried to figure out how I could screw any hate group member over. Never. Furthermore, I don’t know of any person who has. We don’t think about them, any of them, and I mean never, unless they attempt to harm one of us.
Anyway, to get back to your question, we have a heavily indoctrinated part of our society, mainly at the college level, that is being taught by extremely ignorant teachers who make Jews the “scapegoat” as to why Palestinians don’t flourish in the Middle East. A book like mine would never be used on someone’s syllabus. It’s shocking to me that schools that charge $40,000/year teach blatant lies without recourse. What really blows me away is how much money universities have received from Jews who attended those schools. Endowments, buildings, tuition, and contributions, yet the schools continue to hire radicals, liars, and ignorant teachers with agendas.
I could go on and on about this.
Furthermore, I would guess 99% of the people who showed up to these “rallies” couldn’t point out Gaza on a map, but if I were asked what I would do, I would want the name of every student who unlawfully participated. I want every Jew from every campus to immediately withdraw from school and be refunded 100% of the tuition and ancillary costs associated with attending said school, plus all costs associated with transferring to another school.
Are there three things the community/society/politicians can do to help you address the root of the problem you are trying to solve?
Definitely, also, I want to be very clear: I support and believe in our First Amendment rights. I don’t care who is in charge of any protest, “march,” or whatever; as long as they have the correct permits and stay within the confines of the law, enjoy your neo nazi rallies.
Just because I disagree with someone or some cause “de jour” does not override the laws that govern this country, state, or city.
There is nothing at the federal level that interests me. My gosh, we have enough laws. What needs to happen is that all Universities and Colleges should certainly have laws protecting Jews, Christians, White, Black, Browns, Asians–everyone.
Every University’s first job is to ensure the safety of all of its students. The number one job, PERIOD. The fact that a lot of Universities “overlooked” that important role when it came to Jews is outright disgusting and disgraceful at a minimum and jail time at a maximum.
Again, we should be on the offensive against this nonsense. We have plenty of attorneys who should inform us of the protection laws in every state, and we should act accordingly.
I want nothing from politicians except to enforce the laws on the books. What did the politicians from the states that universities wouldn’t protect their Jewish students do to ensure the safety of their Jewish students? NOTHING. So that’s what I expect from them. Some of them spoke up at a couple of the hearings, and that was nice to see, but outside of a couple of people resigning, the outcome didn’t change anything.
What are your “5 Things Everyone Can Do To Be An Upstander”? If you can, please share a story or an example for each.
- Be Knowledgeable. Know some facts before judging anyone. I’m not referring to “facts” you think you may hear while drinking at a bar. As you start to gain knowledge and that knowledge supports or reinforces your argument, you can slowly start making your way to the first level of being an Upstander.
- Open Your Mind. It goes without saying. You know by now I don’t care if I support your beliefs or not; you should always, I repeat always, have an open mind. I enjoy talking to someone who, just by conversation, makes me smarter. Also, it keeps you from hate. I have a million comments, facts, and questions for every Palestinian protester who was on every campus in this country that I know they couldn’t answer, but a lot of them didn’t care or didn’t want to hear them. For me, there’s nothing worse than talking to someone who is close-minded. Don’t be that person.
- Passion. You can’t be an Upstander if you aren’t passionate about it. Passion for me encompasses education, responsibility, excitement, knowledge, learning, etc., etc., etc. Nothing will turn you from an Upstander to a Bystander quicker than no passion.
- Clear Directive. What is your commitment? Do you know exactly what you stand for and why you stand for it? Your passion must be organized and clear. Now, things may change and you can change with it, but when things are wrong and others try and change it, you must be resolute if you know it’s wrong.
- Fun. Obviously, a situation will dictate if something turns ugly, but in general, most people in the U.S. are friendly and just want to go on with their lives. I don’t care who you are, what you believe, and where you’re from, but if you don’t add some fun, you may still be an Upstander, but you’ll probably be an ass too. Numbers 1 through 4 that I answered will quickly go away without mixing in some fun.
How do you handle the emotional toll that comes with being an Upstander?
As mentioned in a few of the questions above, you can always move forward if you have knowledge and passion for your topic. I think some of your words above internally ignited passion and loyalty to oneself by protecting and advocating for victims.
Our society is kind and openly gives to others. Furthermore, we are generally a fair and just society that has no problem helping someone who needs it. Knowing that many people will help the less fortunate, andI define a helper as an Upstander.
There are many definitions of bystanders, and it’s not too difficult to change, but bystanders are the lazy, the uneducated, the weak, and the misanthrope. Bystanders don’t just sit around and do nothing; they are ignorant and plainly just followers. Of course, they deserve the same rights I do, but bystanders find strength in numbers as they feel numbers will mitigate attention and provide false courage.
If you were in charge of the major social media companies, what would you do to address the hate on the platforms? Could you share specific strategies or policies that you believe would be effective in addressing hate on social media platforms?
I’m not sure what I would change as I would need an explanation of what is allowed to circumvent the 1st Amendment.
One thing I would do, and it’s something I’m trying right now, is to set up multiple social media message boards that bring, for example, Jews, neo-nazis, Blacks, Homosexuals, etc., to boards that provide discussions. I’m positive that, over time, everyone on this type of message board will not only come together and realize they all have the same issues, but I don’t think it will take too long for friendships to begin.
We have so much information in the palms of our hands that ignorance and prejudice can be easily dissuaded just by fact-checking from our phones. Also, I think if the U.S. made it mandatory for all citizens to live in a third-world country for six months, we could eliminate virtually all words ending in “isms.”
How would you answer someone who says: “Hate speech is permitted under the US Constitution. Why are you so worried about permitted and legal speech?”
I don’t endorse hate speech, but I would do nothing to change it. I agree with the law, and the law itself is fine. The problem is how certain people define it. Again, if someone wants to have a protest or be part of a protest, have fun. Just keep it within the confines of the law as I mentioned earlier.
The problem comes when protests and protesters ignore the laws, and Universities or cities are allowed to witness, watch, and look at the laws being broken and do nothing. Unfortunately, that’s the position many universities and cities have taken.
I do want to highlight that just because we have the First Amendment, it doesn’t give anyone the right to “scream fire in a movie theater,” etc. The law isn’t completely written to say that as soon as you open your mouth, you are protected by free speech.
I will say it one more time: the most important role of every university, EVERY, is to ensure the safety of its students. Students in many Universities come from all over the world, but they are all protected by the laws and assurances of the Universities. When the administration fails to protect its students, the administration must be fired IMMEDIATELY. All of them. It was an utter disgrace how a lot of these Universities treated their Jewish students, and all of them should be fired. What a disgrace.
Also, and again, every Jewish student from all of these Universities needs to transfer. It seems you are not wanted, and your actions or lack thereof perpetuate the pure definition of a “bystander” that includes all, ALL of the administrations that let this go on.
Are you optimistic we can solve this problem in the United States? Can you please explain what you mean?
Nope is my first reaction; “I highly doubt it” is my second. Some people rise up when called upon, and some don’t. Some are smarter than others, stronger than others, faster than others, etc. When you talk about racism or antisemitism, etc., it certainly may shrink in size, but it will never go away. Why? Because you will always have someone who will blame their hardships on others. One of the easiest things to do is justify one’s inadequacies, because of someone else. In summation to your question, when a country can eliminate prejudice, ignorance, stupidity, and on and on, then maybe…But I doubt it.
What advice would you give to someone who wants to become an Upstander but doesn’t know where to start?
Most people growing up have a pretty good grasp of right and wrong. That’s a blanket statement for truly everyone. From the rich to the poor, the educated to the non-educated, all of us are given some type of tool to help us navigate society. On most issues we know about (not care about but know about), we would probably be considered bystanders. I would assume people would consider themselves Upstanders on issues that are important to them.
Yes, people have complete apathy toward many issues, but when I was growing up, we were taught to be respectful and stand up for ourselves and others. My advice would be, “Don’t sweat the small stuff,” but when you see something you care about, or you have the ability to help someone or some group do what they can’t do for themselves, or you find something you enjoy, but only a small minority agree with you, get involved. That’s it, get involved.
In what ways can education be leveraged to combat antisemitism, racism, bigotry, and hate?
I’m not sure. It’s not the education in Middle School or High School, per se, as that’s impossible to monitor. Every school is integrated these days; most students play sports together. I think most ignorance is found in college or after discovering how tough it is in the business world. When someone puts one, just one, hint of an excuse and starts to blame others for their lack of achievements, you see real hate emerge.
They see someone has a nicer car, house, wife, husband, etc… and they think, “Well it can’t be from their choices in life. It’s all because of (fill in the blank).”
Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share how that was relevant to you in your life?
I’ll leave you the quotation, but it speaks for itself. Everyone should look at this quotation periodically and just nod.
“Fear does not stop death.
It stops life.
And worrying does not take away tomorrow’s trouble.
It takes away today’s peace.”
Is there a person in the world, or in the US with whom you would like to have a private breakfast or lunch with, and why? He or she might just see this, especially if we tag them. 🙂
Probably Jack Nicklaus. He has always been a first-class gentleman, winning or losing. He has done so much for the city of Columbus that I have always wanted to thank him personally. Furthermore, I have played golf in many cities in and outside the U.S., but The Memorial Golf Course is the best of them all. Thanks, Jack.
How can our readers further follow your work online?
https://www.instagram.com/neveragainmeans/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/neveragainmean/
This was very meaningful, thank you so much. We wish you only continued success in your important work!
Upstanders: How Mike Gutter Is Standing Up Against Antisemitism, Racism, Bigotry, and Hate was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.