Social Impact Authors: Why & How Author Justin Pogue of Rental Secrets Is Helping To Change Our World
An Interview With Edward Sylvan
Rental Secrets teaches renters how landlords think so they can get the most for their rental dollar and shows landlords that renters are more than just the rent check they pay each month. The aim is to demonstrate how both can be better off if they worked together.
As part of my series about “authors who are making an important social impact”, I had the pleasure of interviewing Justin Pogue.
Justin Pogue is the CEO and founder of Rental Secrets, as well as an award-winning author and real estate consultant. His book, Rental Secrets, has already helped numerous people across the country and led him to found his company by the same name. He teaches renters how landlords think so they get the most for their rental dollar while showing landlords that renters are more than just a monthly rent check. By showing how to win in the residential rental market, he’s improving our national housing conversation. FOX News, The Mercury News, SFGate, Realtor.com, and ApartmentTherapy.com have all featured his insights for the benefit of their audiences. Since 2003, he has developed and managed apartments, rental homes, and student housing across the United States. Justin holds a degree in Economics from The Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, as well as an MBA from The Darden School at the University of Virginia.
Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series! Before we dive into the main focus of our interview, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you tell us a bit about your childhood backstory?
Before Silicon Valley became Silicon Valley, my parents moved from New York City to San Jose, CA. They were both the first in their families to finish college. While my father supported the family financially, my mother was the one with the entrepreneurial spirit. She was always trying out new businesses whether it was owning a print shop, becoming a real estate agent, or starting a greeting card business with her close friend.
As a result of their focus on education, my parents chose to enroll me in private school, as my mother felt the available public schools weren’t challenging enough. So at the tender age of seven, I began traveling eight miles to get to school in a white 1977 Datsun B210.
However, upon arriving at school each day, I noticed the other cars that were arriving to drop off students. It was hard to miss the luxury cars that pulled up, one after the other. Our Datsun B210 was about as far as you could get from luxury. I was old enough to compare the cars and began to feel inferior to the other students.
Then at the age of nine, the unthinkable happened. Our car was in an accident and the driver’s side door was damaged beyond repair. Being the practical people they were my parents headed straight to the junkyard to find a suitable replacement. Clearly, we had different ideas of what the word “suitable” meant as they came home with a door that happened to be…bright red-orange. In my nine-year-old mind, the level of inferiority in my headshot up from an eight well into the double digits. Did they have any idea what they were doing to my life?
But, as I approached junior high I came to realize the type of car didn’t matter. I began to recognize the investment my parents were making in me, which was far more important than the type of car we arrived in. Once I shifted my perspective that feeling of inferiority went away.
Every quarter, the school held an awards assembly for all the students and their parents. On those days, all the luxury cars were parked on campus. And our little Datsun was proudly parked right next to them. Bright red-orange driver’s side door and all.
When you were younger, was there a book that you read that inspired you to take action or changed your life? Can you share a story about that?
I don’t recall a specific book that made me take action or changed my life at a young age. But I do recall when my junior high English teacher first exposed me to the works of William Shakespeare, which positively influenced me I ways I couldn’t even imagine at the time. At the age of eleven, Shakespeare appeared to be writing in a foreign language. While the individual words seemed to be written in English the actual sentences didn’t make sense. Of course, that’s because from a certain perspective they actually were written in another language, old English as opposed to our modern version.
As if that wasn’t daunting enough this particular teacher was someone not to be trifled with. The stories about what happened if you didn’t complete your homework for Mrs. Harp’s class were legendary. And that homework was no joke. Not only did you have to read the book and understand what you read. That wasn’t good enough. She expected students to translate the old English into modern English. Not in their head, but written in the book to show their work. While showing your work was relatively common in math class it was virtually unheard of for English.
However, as I moved on to high school and reflected on that experience, she actually became one of my favorites. I came to appreciate the faith she had in abilities that I hadn’t discovered in myself yet. Learning new languages derived from English continues to come in handy on a daily basis professionally. As we all know, every profession has its own language and as a real estate investor, I had to become conversational in several of them. From mortgages to insurance to fair housing rules to marketing, each has its own language. However, I just think of Mrs. Harp who taught me to never doubt that I could decipher any new language that appeared to be some version of English I hadn’t seen before.
Can you share the funniest or most interesting mistake that occurred to you in the course of your career? What lesson or takeaway did you learn from that?
As a young property manager, I dealt with a number of interesting situations but, the one, in particular, required me to learn how to use a jackhammer. Maintaining control of a property’s expenses is a major part of the job. If control isn’t maintained, you could easily end up with a money-losing investment. Most modern buildings have separate water meters for each apartment, however many older buildings don’t. As a result, water utility services are included with the rent, as was the case with my building.
For the 32 apartments on the property, the water bill would usually range between $900 and $1000 per month. However, one month the water bill tripled. So I scoured the property looking for any leaks and found nothing. The next month the bill dropped down to $1100 which was still high but much better than before. But, in the third month, we received another $3K+ water bill.
It turns out the main water supply line between the water meter and the building was leaking. The high water bills were from water soaking into the dirt surrounding the pipe. In the month where the bill dropped the dirt around the pipe was so saturated that it couldn’t absorb any more water so more stayed in the pipe.
So, three months later the mystery of the water bill was solved, the actual leak still had to be fixed. I had our plumber come out to assess the situation and was promptly presented with an estimate for $6300. $6000 to dig out the dirt and $300 to fix the pipe. At that very moment, it became clear what I needed to do — rent a jackhammer for $50 and learn to use it. I figured, “Hey for $6,000 I could dig a hole.”
Once the utility company had sprayed our parking lot with bright yellow paint marking the location of the underground pipes, I began jackhammering my parking lot to find the leak. But there were two issues I didn’t really consider. First, water from the leaking pipe and the dirt around it mixed to create mud, and digging a hole in mud is not an easy job. Second, I didn’t know that my pipe was actually buried three feet deep instead of the customary two. One foot may not sound like much, but digging through the mud has a way of changing one’s perspective.
After digging down to the leaking pipe, the plumber patched it and the parking lot was put back together good as new. Since I was responsible for paying the water bill, I should have been more proactive and not taken three months to find the leak. But, what I learned was to not be afraid to get my hands dirty if necessary, and sometimes you really do have to dig to get to the real problem because it’s beneath the surface.
Can you describe how you aim to make a significant social impact with your book?
Rental Secrets teaches renters how landlords think so they can get the most for their rental dollar and shows landlords that renters are more than just the rent check they pay each month. The aim is to demonstrate how both can be better off if they worked together.
The current conversation between landlords and renters is utterly broken. If you’ve ever watched a renter/landlord dispute on television, you’ve seen the anger and frustration of both parties on display. You may have even seen a chair thrown across the room!
As we leave school and enter adulthood, we are handed a professionally embossed piece of paper and sent on our way. At that point, there are two things we all need a job and a place to live, which typically means renting. However, there weren’t any classes on how to find a place to live. Why do landlords do what they do? How does the rental market work? What language are landlords even speaking? As a result, young adults are forced to learn by trial and error hoping to be lucky enough to find a responsible landlord. Unfortunately, hope is not a strategy.
In addition to not starting off as an informed rental consumer, the vested interests around the industry benefit from the continued adversarial relationship between renters and landlords. Lawyers benefit from eviction hearings, while local legal aid offices are judged based on the number of renters they defend. But, this adversarial perspective ultimately results in subpar outcomes for both landlords and renters.
And if they were hoping to find a book that explained the rental market to them from the renter’s perspective they were out of luck because no such book existed. This is why I wrote Rental Secrets.
On the other hand, people become landlords for all sorts of reasons. They move for a new job and keep their old home, sometimes by choice, sometimes not. Maybe they inherited a property. Or they attended a real estate seminar and got all excited about all the sexy parts of owning property. None of these paths includes any education about how to actually run and operate a property.
If they had chosen to invest in a bond, they could just sit back and collect interest. But, they invested in real estate and it’s an investment that has to be managed. Renters must be located. Repairs must be made. Landscapes must be mowed. And the relationship between the landlord and their renter is one of the most important aspects of making your property run smoothly. You might be surprised to learn that real estate seminars rarely address this reality.
All of this results in renters feeling helpless and hopeless when they reach the landlord’s office. It also results in landlords believing the renters’ only value is the rent check they pay each month when nothing could be further from the truth.
Rental Secrets is changing these misconceptions one renter and one landlord at a time. I purposely stayed away from focusing on the adversarial legal perspective and instead focused on the market forces at play. These forces are the issues and problems that all landlords face as a result of the nature of their business regardless of their geography. I teach renters how landlords think so they can get the most for their rental dollar. This allows them to speak to landlords in their language, focusing on how they can help landlords solve problems. And people who solve problems get paid. In this case, that payment comes in the form of lower rent. The book also teaches landlords that renters bring more value to their properties than just the rent check they pay. Individual renters influence the quality of the living experience in the apartment community, control the landlord’s turnover costs, and can help keep the landlord’s stress level in check…or not.
One of the most common questions I get is “Which side are you on the renter’s or the landlord’s?” The reality is this is a false choice. Renters need the housing landlords to provide and landlords need renters for their investments to work. Both can win as the residential rental market is not a zero-sum game. The bottom line is that landlords and renters are two sides of the same coin and they need each other. By working together they can each achieve better outcomes with less stress.
Can you share with us the most interesting story that you shared in your book?
Certainly. The book is full of great stories which provide powerful new perspectives for both renters and landlords. But, the story about a college student who was able to control his rent by working for his landlord is quite valuable on a number of different levels.
Earlier in my career, I met a college graduate who worked as an on-site property manager in exchange for free rent. Yes, you heard me correctly…free rent. His goal in taking this job was to explore his career options without the pressure to keep any particular job he tried. In the meantime, he focused on playing tennis, spearfishing, and selling cars he bought at auction. The role required 10 hours per week on average, for such tasks as showing apartments to prospective residents, cleaning the pool, responding to maintenance requests, and collecting rent.
After learning this opportunity existed, he set out to find an appropriate on-site property management position. He had zero property management experience and absolutely no maintenance skills. However, as a job seeker, he focused on what he did have. He had worked as a resident advisor in college and talked to maintenance staff on campus. In addition, interviewing people who were already property managers gave him insight into the relevant concepts, vocabulary, and duties. As he began to interview for these positions at smaller properties, he even bought a toolbox and some tools to help show that he was ready to hit the ground running.
His preparation clearly paid off. He spent four years managing a 20 unit apartment building. While in that job he was able to work in five different industries on a trial basis and network with prospective residents to sell a
few of those cars. The independence and financial stress reduction that this role provided was just what he needed to truly have the freedom to discover what his calling really was.
What was the “aha moment” or series of events that made you decide to bring your message to the greater world? Can you share a story about that?
Having been a real estate professional for so long, I’ve always spent time reading books on the subject. So, the real estate section of the bookstore is a place where I’ve spent quite a bit of time. But, one day I noticed something I never saw before and it struck me as incredibly odd.
There were plenty of books for real estate investors. There were plenty of books for property managers. There were even books for landlords who were just starting out. But, despite the dozens and dozens of books on the shelf, there was still a major industry stakeholder who was left out. And that stakeholder was the renter. The over 43 million households across the United States who pay over half a trillion dollars in rent — yes, that’s trillion with a “T” — each year.
There are plenty of resources that teach you how to get the best deal on a car, a computer, or a household appliance. But, when it comes to renting an apartment, an endeavor that consumes one-third or more of your income there really weren’t many resources available. And the few that were had that adversarial perspective I mentioned earlier.
That experience drove me to write Rental Secrets and led me to create services to help renters and landlords cooperate better so they both can win.
Without sharing specific names, can you tell us a story about a particular individual who was impacted or helped by your cause?
Before writing Rental Secrets, I always thought the most important thing authors focused on was writing their book. Now I know know that creating the book is only the first step. The next step which is just as important is making it visible in the crowded marketplace. There are thousands of books published each year so I had to start figuring out how to set Rental Secrets apart.
Part of my strategy for this was to start attending networking meetings. Eventually, I was attending 3–4 of these networking sessions per week. A local chamber of commerce hosted one of these meetings at a hotel in Palo Alto, CA. As an incentive for their members to attend they raffled off a number of prizes, including a free stay at the host hotel. I didn’t know about the raffle, but luckily I always bring copies of my book when I attend these events. As I was checking in, one of the organizers asked me about my book. After a brief conversation, she immediately suggested that I contribute a copy to the raffle — an offer that I eagerly accepted.
The raffle was held later in the evening and the president of the chamber described each prize creating great drama and suspense as the winners were chosen. However, when he got to my book he asked me to come to the front of the room and describe it to the group. They then pulled a name out of the bowl and I autographed my book for the winner.
About fifteen minutes later, I was approached by a woman who was the executive director of the local YMCA. She had seen me present Rental Secrets and wanted to ask me a few questions about it. After our conversation, she decided to buy the book for her employees.
The following month the group gathered again for another networking event, including the YMCA executive director. And she was quite excited to speak to me. It turns out that one of her employees was facing the prospect of having to leave her job and move out of the area as a result of high rent. However, after using the information in Rental Secrets she was able to negotiate with her landlord, stay in the San Francisco Bay Area, and keep her job at the YMCA.
This is only one of the many stories about those who have been touched by this book. But, it demonstrates the value in giving people options, hope, and the ability to continue focusing on the impact they want to make.
Are there three things the community/society/politicians can do to help you address the root of the problem you are trying to solve?
I’d like to see the housing discussion framed differently. The adversarial mindset that currently dominates our discussion has been extremely harmful and prevented us from considering better alternatives. And politicians can help in several ways.
First, politicians please stop presenting the housing issue as landlords versus renters. They are two sides of the same coin and ultimately they want the same thing — quality rental communities for people to live in. The residential rental housing market is not a zero-sum game. Both renters and landlords can win. In addition, this adversarial mindset ignores fundamental structural issues that are fueling the animosity between renters and landlords, such as zoning regulations, construction costs, etc.
Second, shift the focus to educating renters about how to navigate the residential rental market to get the most for their money. Currently, the expectation is for people reaching adulthood to hope for a good landlord and learning by trial and error. And unfortunately, hope is not a plan. This results in helplessness and hopelessness whenever renters enter the landlord’s office. A better approach would be to teach our young adults how to navigate the rental market and better focus on their goals, as that YMCA employee was able to do.
Third, the current adversarial climate has resulted in housing policy “solutions” that have been short-sighted and unsustainable, such as rent control. Meaning they benefit renters today at the expense of the next generation of renters. Rent control as an example has resulted in a lower rent for those who stay in place for multiple generations, but pushed rents for the remaining units much higher than then would otherwise be. A more holistic approach with a longer-term perspective is certainly called for.
How do you define “Leadership”? Can you explain what you mean or give an example?
Leadership is about creating a vision for the future and then following through with the steps to achieve that vision in the right way; a way that is sustainable, attracts the right people and actually creates a better future.
When we typically think about leadership we tend to focus on an individual leading a team of others. But, that’s not where leadership starts because before you can lead anyone else you have to be able to lead yourself. Meaning if you can’t commit and follow through on your own goals why would anyone else follow you.
Using myself as an example, I developed a vision of what I wanted my book to say. Then I found a way to sustain the effort to get the first draft written by networking and taking a class on the process of writing a book. Next, I needed to find others who could help with the book cover, edit the text, and give me feedback to refine the reading experience. I then had to learn how to get it published so it became a real, tangible book — something others could use. But, that initial focus on leading myself is where it all began. I had to remain driven and motivated to follow through on my commitment to complete the book. It was only after these initial foundational steps that I could convince others to participate and help make my vision a reality.
What are your “5 things I wish someone told me when I first started” and why. Please share a story or example for each.
It is amazing to me the subjects that are simply not taught in school or not taught until the graduate school level. Here are the 5 things I wish someone had clued me into at the beginning of my career:
Number 1: You have a personal brand. Just like all these big companies. They spend massive resources every year ensuring that when you think of their name certain specific images and feelings come to mind.
The same is true of your personal brand. What do you want people to imagine, think, or feel when they hear your name? Consciously decide on what your brand should represent. Cultivate that and nourish it with each interaction you have and every product or service you create.
If you look at the interviews I’ve done, archived at rentalsecrets.net/media, you’ll see that I’m building the Rental Secrets brand little by little. What I want people to immediately picture when they hear Rental Secrets is authentic real estate guidance creating options that renters and landlords never knew existed. I want Rental Secrets to feel refreshing, empowering, and hopeful.
Number 2: You are far more capable than you think. Early in my career, I was managing a 32 unit apartment building in the southeastern part of the United States. There were two, two-story buildings on the property with a drainage canal behind built to divert stormwater. During one summer we experienced a torrential rainstorm. Water was everywhere. The ground was soaked. But, things went from bad to worse when the drainage canal got blocked downstream, resulting in my property being flooded. Those who lived on the first floor were pushing towels under their front doors in a vain effort to keep the water out. Meanwhile, all I could do was watch from the second floor as the water rose.
I’d never been through a flood before. I didn’t really know what to do. So I just started by asking questions. Who handles situations like this? Disaster recovery companies. So I called one only to be told it would cost $2,000 per apartment just to rip everything out and clean up. I was doing the math in my head and it wasn’t a pretty picture. Sixteen apartments multiplied by $2000 each was $32,000 that I didn’t have. But it led to the next question, what were the steps they were going to take, and what resources were required to accomplish them? That question put me on track to create the plan that had all 16 apartments up and running 3 days later. While I initially doubted I could handle the situation, through that experience I learned I was much more capable than I gave myself credit for. It’s very likely that you might be doubting yourself right now. Don’t! You are more capable than you think.
Number 3: Relationships are key. Clearly, the disaster recovery service wasn’t the right answer to my flood situation. So, my next call was to my carpet cleaning vendor because I thought they would have water extraction equipment. But, you have to understand that this flood wasn’t only affecting me it was impacting the whole town. That vendor was fielding calls from all of their clients. But, the fact that they not only answered my phone call that night but came on-site to help me assess the damage is a testament to the quality of the relationship I had built over the previous two years. They could have easily put me off until tomorrow or the next day. That would have been totally understandable given the magnitude of what was happening. So when you’re thinking about what to do next always lean in favor of strengthening your relationships.
Number 4: Share your message. Never be afraid or embarrassed to share your message. It is true that some people will shy away from it. But, it’s also true that others will be attracted to it. They will gravitate towards you because the message you’re putting out resonates with them. They are looking for a tribe to belong to and you just sent up a signal flare indicating you are what they are looking for.
I often talk about the value of going to networking events and sharing the mission that I’m on. This has allowed me to meet so many people who resonate with my brand and message. These people included Sam Liccardo, the mayor of San Jose — London Breed, the mayor of San Francisco, California State Senator, Scott Weiner, and many others. These conversations led some of them to put me in touch with their staff to determine specifically how Rental Secrets might be helpful to the audiences they serve.
But, none of these meetings would have happened if I’d kept my message to myself. So, what is your message? Who are you sharing it with? You just might be pleasantly surprised at who will take an interest.
Number 5: Like It or Not You Are In Sales. Regardless of whether it’s in your job description or not, you are first and foremost a salesperson. People shy away from sales because it evokes images of the sleazy used car salesperson. But, nothing could be further from the truth.
You are selling your toddler on eating their vegetables. You’re selling your date on a particular restaurant or outing for the evening. And yes when you go on a job interview you’re selling the value of your skills to a potential employer. All of this is selling. So don’t be ashamed of what you have to offer. Embrace it. Because nothing changes until you make the sale.
Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share how that was relevant to you in your life?
“Life is not the Olympics. You don’t get extra points for difficulty.” In figure skating, the more complicated and difficult the performance is the higher the score. However, outside of that particular competition any added difficulty just makes it take that much longer to reach your goals. So, take full advantage of the tools, mentors, and other resources around you. There’s no reason why being an entrepreneur has to be a solo performance filled with loneliness. Sure the people immediately around you may not share your vision but there are others out there who will.
Not only will they share your vision, but they will also freely share ideas to help you. Most of these ideas would have never occurred to you because they are working from a different perspective than yours. As I mentioned previously, never be too afraid, prideful, or ashamed to go to networking events, or get on networking video calls and share your vision. There’s no need to make your path any harder than it already is. Because you don’t get any extra points for difficulty.
Is there a person in the world, or in the US with whom you would like to have a private breakfast or lunch with, and why? He or she might just see this, especially if we tag them. 🙂
My choice would be to have lunch with the current President and CEO of Wal-Mart U.S., John Furner. As the largest private employer in the country with 1.5 million employees and being in the retail sector, a large percentage of his employees are likely renting.
Walmart has made a concerted effort to develop their employees both personally and professionally through their Live Better U program since 2018. By teaching Walmart’s employees how landlords think and how to get the most for their rental dollar, Rental Secrets could further Wal-mart’s goal of professional and personal employee empowerment. And this type of employee benefit could serve as an example for other employers as well.
How can our readers further follow your work online?
There are several ways people can follow me online. At RentalSecrets.net they can get my free guide to a stress-free apartment search. And by following me on social media they can get free renter and landlord tips every day. They have their choice of Instagram(@rentalsecrets), Twitter(@rentalsecret), Facebook(@rentalsecrets), and Linkedin(@justincpogue). Or they can follow them all because I share different tips on each one.
This was very meaningful, thank you so much. We wish you only continued success on your great work!
Social Impact Authors: Why & How Author Justin Pogue of Rental Secrets Is Helping To Change Our… was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.