An Interview With Edward Sylvan
My colleague Brad Googins and I wrote Sustainability to Social Change to encourage and help managers and working people increase their “significant social impact.” We focus on five problems facing all organizations — Purpose, Prosperity, People, Products, and Planet. To address them, businesses need to develop a higher purpose, work toward more inclusive prosperity, engage employees in helping to address societal challenges, make products (or deliver services) that are good for consumers and society. They must creatively collaborate with partners to regenerate our world, not just “sustain” it.
As part of my series about “authors who are making an important social impact”, I had the pleasure of interviewing Philip Mirvis.
Philip Mirvis is a psychologist whose research and private practice concerns organizational change, a better workforce and workplace, and business leadership in society. An advisor to companies and NGOs on five continents, he has authored or edited sixteen books including his latest How to Do Relevant Research: From the Ivory Tower to the Real World and Sustainability to Social Change: Lead Your Company from Managing Risks to Creating Social Value. Mirvis is a fellow of the Academy of Management where he received a career achievement award as “Distinguished Scholar-Practitioner”. Also, a global traveler, married to Mary Jo Hatch, father of three, now a grandfather, who dreams and works for a better world for all. He lives in Ranchos des Taos, New Mexico, USA.
Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series! Before we dive into the main focus of our interview, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you tell us a bit about your childhood backstory?
I grew up in Columbus, Ohio in a Middle-class town. My home was near a pizza parlor and drive-in restaurant where waitresses served on roller skates. Growing up, I had two wake-up calls.
In the 1960s, my junior high school (grades 7–9) combined students from a mostly white and mostly Black neighborhood. For the first time, I had met Black peers and teachers. I was confronted with interracial issues. MLK was a hero to all of us. Although we had many conflicts and protests, we forged lasting friendships and gained mutual understanding across racial lines.
During my college years in 1970, I saw the unwarranted jailing of Black Panther Bobby Seale and the anti-Vietnam War protests at Kent State that led to the killing of students. As a kid from Columbus, amidst tear gas on the New Haven Green, I had a choice to make — either go home until things settled down (“silencer is consent”) or get engaged, learn more, and stand up for what’s right (“give peace a chance”). I came to see myself as what Debra Myerson calls a “tempered radical” — fighting to make change within the system.
When you were younger, was there a book that you read that inspired you to take action or changed your life? Can you share a story about that?
Upton Sinclair’s The Jungle revealed the horrors of the meatpacking industry in Chicago at the turn of the 20th century — appalling working conditions, rotten meat, animal cruelty, and the shattered dreams of Jurgis Rudkus, the Lithuanian (my heritage) immigrant who came to the US in hopes of living the American dream. The 1970s study by Jim O’Toole, Work in America, showed plenty was still rotten in the “modern” workplace. My life course was set — make work better for people.
Can you share the funniest or most interesting mistake that occurred to you in the course of your career? What lesson or take away did you learn from that?
We write about “Maoist Millennials” in our book and their loss of faith in democratic capitalism.
Just as the Cultural Revolution in China had run its course, I went there after graduate school to teach and do research. Senior professors there had spent the last ten years on pig farms, slopping hogs and reading only the “Little Red Book” while being hectored by Red Guard teens. What I expected to see, the utopic appeal of Maoism, shattered.
There’s a lot wrong with democratic capitalism as practiced in the US. I rather like the Scandinavian model, but Maoism is not for me. And I’m no fan of China’s current “state capitalism” either.
Can you describe how you aim to make a significant social impact with your book?
My colleague Brad Googins and I wrote Sustainability to Social Change to encourage and help managers and working people increase their “significant social impact.” We focus on five problems facing all organizations — Purpose, Prosperity, People, Products, and Planet. To address them, businesses need to develop a higher purpose, work toward more inclusive prosperity, engage employees in helping to address societal challenges, make products (or deliver services) that are good for consumers and society. They must creatively collaborate with partners to regenerate our world, not just “sustain” it.
To many, this sounds idealistic and naïve. However, the book makes the case that much of it is happening now; it supplies a rationale, case studies, and practical guidance for those who want their organizations and jobs to help “make a better world.”
One of the reviewers, Judy Samuelson — head of the Business and Society group of the Aspen Institute — said: “At last, a book that blends the ‘why’ with the ‘how’: why it’s important to embrace social change in business and how leaders can go about it.’ Sustainability to Social Change lands at the right moment, drawing on decades of practical research and observation to show the way forward.”
Can you share with us the most interesting story that you shared in your book?
We learned that Dow Chemical, over a decade ago, set a “moon shot” goal to reduce energy use by 90%. No one thought it possible, but Dow met its goal and saved $5.5 billion based on an incremental investment of $1 billion in the process. In the next round, Neil Hawkins, then Dow’s VP of Sustainability, proposed an even harder-to-reach environmental impact-reduction target. But colleagues challenged Neil: “If Dow is truly a leader in science and technology, why not apply that know-how to solve significant world challenges?”
Thus, beyond reducing its impacts further, Dow would shoot for a five-fold increase in sales of products using “sustainable chemistry.” It would deliver three breakthroughs from its labs to solve world challenges. In discussing this game change with Hawkins and another executive Bo Miller, we all agreed that the company had shifted its approach from reducing risks to seizing opportunities. Bo summed it up this way: “We are not just doing less bad,” he said, “we are doing more good.”
That’s where the idea of increasing your company’s company handprint, not just reducing its footprint, originates.
What was the “aha moment” or series of events that made you decide to bring your message to the greater world? Can you share a story about that?
Businesses turned to sustainability two decades ago. While progress is good, it is just NOT Good Enough. In 2019, 180 CEOs of major US companies in the Business Roundtable issued their “Statement of Purpose of a Corporation” saying they would no longer feel bound by the single-minded pursuit of profits. Instead, they would lead their companies “for the benefit of all stakeholders — customers, employees, suppliers, communities and shareholders.” But here’s the rub: More than six in ten Americans believe that companies prioritize their shareholders over employees and customers and a worldwide majority don’t trust what CEOs have to say. It is easy to see why so many view this purpose pledge, given its history and performance, as corporate PR, gaslighting, or worse, “putting lipstick on a pig”.
Then came COVID-19, #MeToo, Black Lives Matter, and we saw businesses step up. In June 2020, after George Floyd’s death at the knee of a police officer, Starbucks prohibited its employees from wearing #BlackLivesMatter gear — fearing that it might incite violence in its stores. Calvin Bensen, a 22-year-old barista from Atlanta, told the media that Starbucks’ response was “disappointing in ways I can’t express in words. It is silencing and Starbucks is complicit. Now more than ever, Starbucks needs to stand with us.”
The coffee maker brought its staff together to talk in an open forum. Then, they designed t-shirts for its baristas “to demonstrate our allyship and show we stand together in unity.” The shirts depicted protest signs saying, “Speak Up” and “Time for Change,” and one featured a raised black fist announcing, “It’s not a moment, it’s a movement.”
In our book, we examine business “activism” on social issues and profile companies like Salesforce, Ikea, Starbucks, Unilever, and others taking big steps to lead social change.
Without sharing specific names, can you tell us a story about a particular individual who was impacted or helped by your cause?
Today, Unilever is rated as the #1 company in the world on “doing good.” This wasn’t the case twenty years ago. Then, it began to repurpose itself by promoting “sustainable living.”
I worked with one of Unilever’s leaders to bring this new purpose to life among his people. This individual led managers and young leaders from 17 national companies in the Asia-Pacific on a series of “learning journeys” to raise their consciousness about social, economic, and environmental issues and the needs of their countrymen. They met with school children, Indigenous peoples, everyday consumers, and the poor, learned from business, government, and community figures. They talked deeply with one another about their personal and business purposes.
This deep engagement with society personally impacted many of Unilever’s Asian leaders. One said: “The communities we visited reminded me of an ‘itch’ that has been bugging me for the longest time, that is, to give my time and effort to a cause which is beyond myself (and even beyond my family). I have been blessed so much in this life that the least I can do is to help my fellow men. I need to act now.”
Are there three things the community/society/politicians can do to help you address the root of the problem you are trying to solve?
First, surveys find that consumers worldwide today want brands that both “solve my problems” (85%) and help to “solve society’s problems” (80%). Companies, advertisers, influencers, and regulators need to do a better job of informing customers about the harms and benefits of the goods they buy.
Second, the gridlocked government has stalled progress on the Sustainable Development Goals, CO2 emissions, wage equity, and many other issues. We call on businesses to “take the lead” on these issues. Yet without government investment, legislation, and tax incentives, there’s only so much business can do. Voting makes a difference here.
Third, politicians and marketers work as though “self-interest” is the only motivator for voters and consumers. What about “shared interests” and our collective future? People need to “wake up” and take action to what’s happening in society and the world!
How do you define “Leadership”? Can you explain what you mean or give an example?
Leadership is not simply a “position” nor characteristic of a “person” who takes charge and issues commands. Nowadays, people throughout well-run organizations can exert influence and mobilize “followers”. When it comes to leading, I think of the Old English word “lædan” which means “to go before as a guide.”
I’m good friends with Ben & Jerry, the socially responsible ice cream makers. Our book gives you some of the “inside scoop” on how they have led to social change. As progressive as those two were, they were not early leaders in the “green movement.” At their first plant, (for example) they fed ice-cream overflow to pigs. While it sounded green, a heavy fine and adverse publicity over untreated wastewater led the firm to redesign water quality control and construct a treatment greenhouse. Then Gail Mayville, secretary to the CEO, enlisted people throughout the company in a self-initiated program in recycling, helping to form employee green teams in plants. She and her teams guided B&J’s to the green frontier.
What are your “5 things I wish someone told me when I first started” and why. Please share a story or example for each.
Talk with, not at people. When I first started teaching, I fancied myself as the “sage on the stage.” I’ve found that listening, discussing, and sharing ideas is a better way to teach and to learn.
Not everything worth doing is worth doing well. I’m a “perfectionist” when it comes to my research and writing which means it’s often labored and late. Sometimes a “first draft” is ok and then look to others to improve it.
Scholarship is a team sport. In school and in numerous sports, winning is all about individual achievement. Ideas and their so-what’s are best developed and carried forward with collective effort. That’s why I work with Brad Googins and other colleagues.
Fail forward. Many of my early projects aimed at social impact were failures. I’d brood about them and turn my attentions to other matters. I’m trying now to fail fast, regroup and learn, and take another whack at it.
Assume nothing, expect everything. My preconceived notions about who will win elections, what progress will look like, and what the future will bring are often wrong. I’ve found it useful to “think the unthinkable” and embrace Murphy’s Law.
Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share how that was relevant to you in your life?
Arnold Toynbee reportedly said that history is “just one damned thing after another.” In work and social change, negative trends seem to follow positive ones, and optimism gives way to pessimism. As we look at social change in the book, there exist certain “trajectories” — concerning respect for human rights, valuing differences, favoring fairness, and moving toward planetary citizenship — that are irrepressible.
Yes, progress will be slower than hoped, step forwards will be followed by stepbacks, and “wildcards,” like COVID and Putin invading Ukraine, will disrupt any sense that our world will ever be a better place. Luckily, after meeting many managers and working people, and seeing how their companies strive to do better, I sense that the journey underway is a worthy one.
Is there a person in the world, or in the US with whom you would like to have a private breakfast or lunch with, and why? He or she might just see this, especially if we tag them. 🙂
Sir Richard Branson, Co-Founder of The B Team. Pioneer in Good Business.
How can our readers further follow your work online?
Connect with me at https://www.linkedin.com/in/philip-mirvis-a818579/
Follow my research at https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Philip-Mirvis/research
This was very meaningful, thank you so much. We wish you only continued success on your great work!
Social Impact Authors: How & Why Psychologist Philip Mirvis Is Helping To Change Our World was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.