…Leadership means listening more than lecturing: Listening to others — be they people seeking advice or those providing advice — is paramount to successful leadership. The moment that you cease to be teachable (because you “already know it all”) is the moment that your failure as a leader commences. The moment that you quit listening to those who are subordinate (because you “already know better”) is when your failure as a leader is complete..
As part of my series about “authors who are making an important social impact”, I had the pleasure of interviewing Carole Brody Fleet. She is an international speaker, a multi-award winning author of four books and a regular contributor to the iconic Chicken Soup for the Soul book series. An expert in grief and life-adversity recovery, Ms. Fleet has made over 1,200 radio program appearances to date and additionally appears on numerous television programs; as well as in worldwide print and web media.
Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series! Before we dive into the main focus of our interview, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you tell us a bit about your childhood backstory?
I was born and raised in Southern California. Growing up as a byproduct of a wonderfully-eclectic household, I am a classically trained cellist who also adores every kind of music imaginable; from crooners to folk; from big band to disco; from classical to heavy metal. I loved participating in competitive gymnastics and swimming, as well as spending my formative years in Hebrew school and with religious study — not to mention the nearly-twenty years that I spent onstage as a Polynesian dancer. I’ve adored writing for as long as I can remember; however, when I saw my byline for the first time as a seventh grader, accompanying a poem that I’d written for the yearbook…I was hooked.
My high school years were truly one of the best periods in my life. I enjoyed being extremely active both scholastically and with extracurricular activities; including orchestra, a stint as a basketball stat girl, drill team, cheerleading and of course, writing for the school newspaper. I became the Editorial Editor as a sophomore; unheard of at the time and to the laughing dismay of the seniors. Though I did not realize my dream of becoming a full-time writer until later in life, I was able to exercise my writing “chops” as a certified paralegal; spending over a decade in the legal profession and specializing in the areas of personal injury, medical malpractice and wrongful death.
In sum, I enjoyed a childhood and young adulthood filled with amazing family, an abundance of love and wonderful friendships that endure to this day; indeed, an experience that I was blessed to live.
When you were younger, was there a book that you read that inspired you to take action or changed your life? Can you share a story about that?
“To Kill a Mockingbird” had a tremendous influence and planted the first seeds of social activism. Initially seeing the movie in AP English class, I was immediately moved to read the book afterward. In addition to being thoroughly inspired by the fact that the book was written by a woman, the profundity with which this story teaches courage of conviction and standing for right, even when — or perhaps especially when — it is unpopular at best and
dangerously ugly at worst, is a lesson that I carry to this day. It is also a lesson that I have passed on to my children.
Can you share the funniest or most interesting mistake that occurred to you in the course of your career? What lesson or take away did you learn from that?
I was speaking on the subject of dating post-widowhood at a national conference in Washington D.C.; a seemingly frivolous topic on its face that is actually a very important subject within the widowed community. During the question-and-answer period, a widowed teacher inquired as to getting past the “awkwardness” of online dating. After giving her an answer almost perfunctory in tone (saying something about all dating being initially awkward, etc.), she rebutted with, “What if you arrive to the date and the date is one of your students?” The audience burst out laughing, I was left speechless for the first time in my career and I proceed to respond with an extended-arm “mic drop”…which subsequently broke the mic.
Lesson: Take all questions seriously and answer thoughtfully. Also, do not accompany a humorous retort with a mic drop…unless you badly wish to annoy your AV crew.
Can you describe how you aim to make a significant social impact with your book?
While I am delighted to be of service to widowed ranging in age from seventeen years all the way up to those in their late-eighties, my initial goal was to bring attention to issues particular to chronologically younger widowhood. I sought to first shine a spotlight on this particular demographic (of whom I was one and of which there are literally millions), as there was simply no support or cohesive community in existence. I quickly thereafter branched out to addressing issues confronting widows of all ages.
With “Widows Wear Stilettos…” going into its second edition, I am placing emphases on other historically-neglected areas of widowhood; including “unmarried widows” (survivors without benefit of a marriage license); “remarried widows” (again, being one of those widows myself) and those who are widows of same-sex marriages. Just as the original goal was to bring education, community and support to the chronologically younger widow, I plan to continue effecting change by bringing attention to these lesser-addressed areas of widowhood.
Can you share with us the most interesting story that you shared in your book?
Though there are countless interesting stories from literally thousands of widowed, one very personal story stands out. It was the enormous catalyst for writing the first book; as well as the three books that have since followed.
I lost my husband after a horrific, two-year battle with ALS (Lou Gehrig’s Disease). Several months after his death, I attended a fundraising function for my synagogue. While I was enjoying both my first social outing since my husband’s death and being back among good friends, I met a gentleman who was very complimentary — even flirtatious — until he discovered my marital status. He had assumed that I was divorced…and when I gently informed him that I was widowed, he physically took two steps backward. He was literally backing away from me.
This particular incident was my first harsh lesson in understanding how society views death in general and widowhood in particular. I later realized that through writing, I might be able to begin a narrative as to how to shape-shift the way that the widowed are viewed; the first and most important point being that you will not catch a severe case of Death by being in a widow’s space.
What was the “aha moment” or series of events that made you decide to bring your message to the greater world? Can you share a story about that?
Five years after becoming widowed, it occurred to me that there must be other widowed looking for the same support for which I had been searching years before — and similarly had absolutely no idea in what direction to turn. Years later, I still could not find the guidance that I had initially sought…and as I’m fond of saying, “If you can’t find it — create it”.
I then began jotting notes on a legal pad, consisting of everything that I had once sought: advice on how to help grieving children, how to prioritize and effect legal and financial transitions; how to cope with the not-so-supportive people who may surround the widowed, dating again, loving again, “intimacy again” — even how to return to the workplace. When I’d finished, I wound up with what ultimately became the Table of Contents for “Widows Wear Stilettos…” .
My second book, “Happy EVEN After…”, was a happy accident. I had made a passing remark to my agent about all of the letters that I regularly received; many of which asked the same questions — about money, children, emotions, family challenges, dating, love…ask a widowhood-related question and I have likely seen it in the past. Other letters began with a prelude akin to, “I know that I’m the only one in this situation…” and thereafter went on to share an identical situation previously described by numerous others; yet the widowed authors of these letters were each convinced that they were all alone. My agent listened for a few minutes and then announced, “That’s your next book.”
Although all four books are individual in presentation and tone, the message and the goal remain. The message is that there is life after widowhood and together, we can help you find and live it. My goal remains ending the stigmatizing and marginalization of the widowed community. I am honored to play whatever small part that I am able in delivering that message — and if I can fulfill my original goal of alleviating the pain of “just one more widow”…I will consider the mission a success.
Without sharing specific names, can you tell us a story about a particular individual who was impacted or helped by your cause?
Several years ago, I coached a woman in her early thirties who had been widowed about four years at that point. Her husband had died suddenly of a massive heart attack and four years later, she felt that she had not made any meaningful progress in her grief recovery. In fact, her husband’s dress pants were still hanging over the railing at the end of the bed; left there by him to put on once he had finished showering…only to then suffer the heart attack. Worse still, the people surrounding her were berating her with statements like, “You should be over it by now” and “It’s time to get rid of his things”…which only made her feel as though something was wrong with her. She was so emotionally paralyzed by the very thought of quick-jumping to the “demands” of those around her, she was too overwhelmed to even begin addressing her grief. What no one realized was that she badly wanted to make strides on her healing journey and simply did not know how.
After hearing her obvious desire to move forward, I asked if we could set a goal together. The goal/assignment was to take her husband’s pants off of the bed railing and hang them in the closet. She sounded surprised and asked, “You mean I don’t have to get rid of them?” I replied, “No, just see if you can hang them up — and let’s see if you can do that within the next thirty days”. About a week later, I received an email from her and you could sense the difference in tone and energy…she had hung up the pants! Just by taking what sounds like an infinitesimal step, she was finally able to begin a healing journey that had essentially been on hold for years.
The very important lesson is the understanding that no matter how seemingly small or insignificant, any step forward toward any goal — is a step forward. We are all familiar with the phrase, “How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time”. The same holds true for grief recovery; as well as anything else appearing insurmountable. Grief can feel elephant-like in its scope and size. However, when you break grief down into those “bite-sized pieces” — one day at a time, one task at a time — grief then becomes manageable and eventually conquerable. Knowing that I was able to convey that message to a widow so badly in need was just one in many similarly beautiful moments in my career.
Are there three things the community/society/politicians can do to help you address the root of the problem you are trying to solve?
1. There is no such thing as “typical”: We all have the stereotypical picture of who we imagine a widow to be; chronologically older, usually retired and married for decades. The reality is that the demographics of widowhood have dramatically evolved and expanded — and that evolution and expansion need to be acknowledged and respected. Statements like, “You don’t look like a widow” or “You’re too young to be a widow” or “You don’t ‘count’ as a widow because you weren’t married that long [or married at all]” are dismissive and insensitive. First, age and/or physical appearance has nothing whatsoever to do with widowhood. Stating that someone is “too young” to be a widow makes widowhood sound like a poor career choice — and there is no such thing as not “counting” as a widow; regardless of whether they were married for ten years, ten months, ten minutes…or were unmarried altogether.
2. Eliminate widow “penalties”: Bearing in mind that widowhood is rarely a choice and as ridiculous as it sounds, the widowed can actually be both practically and financially penalized — just for being widowed. For example, once an insurance company is advised of a spousal death, automobile insurance rates are oftentimes increased for the widow. Federal income tax rates can also increase (though in many cases, the widowed are afforded a “special filing status” for the first two years after spousal loss) and depending on the state in which you reside, the same thing can happen at the state level.
Another example involves widowed survivors who are also immigrants. While the laws concerning immigration and widowhood have improved somewhat, immigrants who are the surviving widowed of American spouses can be immediately subject to deportation if they lose their spouse prior to issuance of their permanent resident card (‘green card”); a process that can take years. This deportation can occur regardless of the widowed’s career status, home ownership status and/or having children who are survivors of their American spouse.
In short, the widowed already endure unimaginable grief and pain after spousal loss. The fact that there are any “penalties” invoked upon the widowed is unconscionable and I am proud to be active in efforts to change these laws. In so doing, we can hopefully and ultimately eradicate “widow penalties”.
3. Support our grieving children: Since the millennium, the proliferation of online and in-person support groups and “camps” for children of seriously ill parents, terminally ill parents and parents who have passed away is encouraging; however, it is not enough. Teachers in our public schools require specialized education as to how to best support a child who is coping with these tragic situations. Whether academic or emotional, a teacher can potentially be a source of great support — or they can be a hindrance that affects the child for years to come. Having had this unfortunate experience with my own then-school-aged daughter, I understand that there is not enough education provided to teachers addressing this very sensitive area. It is education in which I would love to participate.
How do you define “Leadership”? Can you explain what you mean or give an example?
Drawing upon my own leadership experiences both prior to and throughout my writing career, I believe that:
1. Leadership means listening more than lecturing: Listening to others — be they people seeking advice or those providing advice — is paramount to successful leadership. The moment that you cease to be teachable (because you “already know it all”) is the moment that your failure as a leader commences. The moment that you quit listening to those who are subordinate (because you “already know better”) is when your failure as a leader is complete.
2. Leadership means blazing the trail, rather than waiting for the construction crew: Simply because something has never before been attempted (or has not been attempted in the way that you envision, or was previously attempted and failed) does not mean that it cannot or should not be attempted…or attempted again. Do not be afraid to be the “first”.
I was initially met with resistance from several different directions; regarding both the concept for the first book and the prospect for successful mobilization of a widowed community. Convinced that there would be others who felt otherwise, I committed to seeing the dream through to whatever reality awaited — and I am very glad that I made that decision.
3. Leaders understand that there is room for everyone at “the table”: I once met the host of a national syndicated radio show at an awards gathering. At the time, I was interested in possibly hosting a radio show of my own one day and I had asked her how she got her start (hardly an uncommon question). She looked at me with what can only be described as scorn and replied, “Why would I tell you that? You’d be my competition.” I was stunned — and in that moment, I decided that I would never treat anyone in that manner. To that end, when someone asks how I obtained literary representation, how I became published, etc., not only do I share the story, I give them specific, actionable steps on how they can do the same — and whether or not they might be “competition” makes no difference whatsoever.
There is room for everyone at “the table” who wants a seat and is willing to do the work. There is no need to knock someone out of their chair — or worse yet, attempt to deny a seat altogether.
4. Leadership is realizing that blowing out someone else’s candle does not make yours burn brighter: You do not become a bigger or better leader by attempting to make someone else appear “less than”; be they a subordinate, an equal or a superior. I also do not believe in the words “constructive criticism”, because there is nothing constructive accomplished in tearing someone down. By all means, make helpful suggestions couched in a way that creates improvement — but I will never understand attempting to diminish another person in the interest of self-aggrandizement.
In other words, be the light that ignites another’s candle — not the bucket of water that drowns it out.
What are your “5 things I wish someone told me when I first started” and why. Please share a story or example for each.
1. No matter how noble your cause or how sincere your intent, not everyone is going to love who you are, what you do or how you go about doing it — however, none of that should ever be a deterrent.
Years ago, I had queried an agent, who then reviewed the proposal for “Widows Wear Stilettos…”. After complimenting the proposal itself, she thereafter informed me that, “Death is a hard sell”. Resisting the urge to tell her that I do not “sell death”, I instead replied that I was sorry that she did not understand the message that the book conveys — and thereafter signed with an agency who immediately understood both the message and the mission.
I love sharing this story; particularly with aspiring writers. It is a reminder to remain true to your message and your goal. Steadfastly believe in both…because for every person that does not “get” you, there are many more people who will.
2. Be careful with whom you share your dream — there exist many “Dreamsnatchers”; eagerly awaiting the opportunity to tell you how and why you will probably flail and possibly fail.
At the beginnings of my writing career, I constantly heard things like, “You’ll never make it in this business”; “Who’s going to listen to you when no one knows who you are?” and “You’re writing about death? That’s so depressing”. When you repeatedly hear such statements, it can definitely cause you to second-guess your own judgment.
Choose not to buy into the narrative that Dreamsnatchers are peddling. To put it another way — if you have a beautiful 16×20 picture, would you go out and buy a 3×5 frame for it? Of course not. Now, think of your ultimate goal as being a 16×20 picture. You cannot share that 16×20 picture of your goal…with someone who has a 3×5 mind. Surround yourself instead with people who will support and reinforce what you are striving to accomplish. Combine that support with seeking out and learning from those who have already succeeded in doing what you are trying to do — because they have done and/or are doing something that you have not done…yet.
3. Success is not a sprint to the finish line. I am not sure if there actually is such a thing as “overnight success” in any area, but with the rarest of exceptions, writing/publishing is not an “overnight success” milieu. I was fortunate to be signed quickly by a literary agency; however, the balance of the journey was (and is) exactly that — a journey.
The publishing industry itself generally does not move quickly. Moreover, amassing an audience does not happen quickly. Building a platform does not come quickly. All of it entails long hours and legwork; patience and persistence. All of it requires committing to building both relationships and your reputation. All of it requires working when occasionally, you would really rather not. And…whether you are realizing success for the first time or the fiftieth time; whether you are right on track, or you have to break through what may feel like a “career cul-de-sac”…all of it is worth every single sacrifice or setback experienced along the way.
4. Rejection is difficult. Rejection is discouraging. Rejection is also a reality of the business — and rejection does not stop; even after realizing success. Despite having written a bestselling first book, despite having an established media and speaking platform and despite the fact that the second book was genuinely unique to the genre, it was two years before “Happily Even After…” was finally sold to a publisher; one who had previously rejected the book…twice. That book went on to win the Books for a Better Life Award, one of the top awards in publishing.
The one thing that rejection is not — is personal. Oftentimes, rejection means, “No, not now”; rather than, “No, never”. Prior to the first book’s publication, I had pitched the story to a major national women’s magazine. They listened to the pitch with great interest, waxed enthusiastically at the book’s premise…and politely said, “No thanks”. About two months after the rejection, the very same publication reached back out to me; stating that they were “anxious” to feature me in the magazine — and resulting in a full-page article (including photograph and sidebar) in the largest national women’s magazine in the United States.
Rejection is not a reflection on you; either as a person or on your work. Everyone experiences rejection and you will be disappointed. However, rejection stops you only if you allow it that magnitude of power. Remain committed and keep working — great things can happen as a result.
5. Avoid public “Comments” sections on the internet. I say that tongue-in-cheek and with a smile, but this advice was actually given to me by a lovely journalist at a major newspaper.
I had been so humbled that a wide variety of media took interest in “Widows Wear Stilettos…” and were enthusiastically helping to deliver its message; reaching even more women in need. My hometown newspaper eventually picked up the story and I was thrilled…until the article was published. The responses began almost immediately; however, unlike the thousands of beautiful letters that I received each month, I was instead the recipient of some of the most detestable and spite-filled invective that I have ever seen. Although most remarkable was the fact that none of the derogatory comments were written by anyone in or from the widowed community, I was nevertheless devastated.
Two months later, the aforementioned journalist came to my home to conduct an interview for her paper. Afterward, I shared my terrible experience after the previous interview had published. She listened with concern and then said, “If you want to survive [in this business] with your sanity intact, stop reading ‘Comments’ sections. There are people who do nothing but troll those sections, for no other reason than to be mean. If people really like what you’re doing, they will write to you and let you know.” She was absolutely right.
Can you please give us your favorite”Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share how that was relevant to you in your life?
In my early teens, my mother gifted me a plaque that hangs on my office wall to this day. It states, “Be concerned with what you must do — not what the people think”. It is an anonymous quote, but one that certainly stands the test of time; perhaps never more so than today.
After years spent teaching that none of us should be defined by loss or tragedy; nor should we settle for anything less than the life that we deserve, my current favorite quote is one that I authored a few years ago:
“While your past — whatever that past entails — will shape you, it does not have to define you. In other words, you do not have to settle for where you are…if where you are is not where you choose to be.”
Is there a person in the world, or in the US with whom you would like to have a private breakfast or lunch with, and why? He or she might just see this, especially if we tag them. 🙂
At the top of my list is Katie Couric; whom I would love to thank for lighting the way for those of us who have followed her.
Not only was Ms. Couric widowed at a younger age and left with two young children to raise, she was also widowed in the public eye. She endured all of the pain, grief, challenge that all widows face and did so on an enormous stage; not to mention the oft-forgotten period of time spent caregiving to a critically ill spouse and the physical, emotional and mental toll that frequently accompanies caregiving. I was so taken with how Ms. Couric coped with her widowhood, she actually inspired one of the chapters in my third book, “When Bad Things Happen to Good Women…”; entitled, “While the World Watches: Loss in the Spotlight” — which in turn inspired writing and speaking in support of other high-profile widowed, such as Celine Dion and Patton Oswalt; both of whom suffered terrible losses and endured abhorrent treatment in the public arena.
How can our readers further follow your work online?
If you or someone you know is widowed, please visit here for resources, tips, affirmations and more. For information on additional works and appearances, topics on which I both write and speak, information for the media, organizations of all manner, hospitals, hospices and those who serve the bereaved community, please visit here. I also welcome everyone to visit Facebook at “Carole Brody Fleet” for hot-topic discussions, inspiration and affirmation, current news and more. We additionally provide a private page on Facebook for widowed women only, “WWS Peer-Led Support Forum”, which is a safe haven for widows to discuss feelings and experiences; seek support from other widows and offer suggestions and advice to those in need.
This was very meaningful, thank you so much. We wish you only continued success on your great work!
About The Interviewer: Growing up in Canada, Edward Sylvan was an unlikely candidate to make a mark on the high-powered film industry based in Hollywood. But as CEO of Sycamore Entertainment Group Inc, (SEGI) Sylvan is among a select group of less than ten Black executives who have founded, own and control a publicly traded company. Now, deeply involved in the movie business, he is providing opportunities for people of color.
In 2020, he was appointed president of the Monaco International Film Festival, and was encouraged to take the festival in a new digital direction.
Raised in Toronto, he attended York University where he studied Economics and Political Science, then went to work in finance on Bay Street, (the city’s equivalent of Wall Street). After years of handling equities trading, film tax credits, options trading and mergers and acquisitions for the film, mining and technology industries, in 2008 he decided to reorient his career fully towards the entertainment business.
With the aim of helping Los Angeles filmmakers of color who were struggling to understand how to raise capital, Sylvan wanted to provide them with ways to finance their creative endeavors.
At Sycamore Entertainment he specializes in print and advertising financing, marketing, acquisition and worldwide distribution of quality feature-length motion pictures, and is concerned with acquiring, producing and promoting films about equality, diversity and other thought provoking subject matter which will also include nonviolent storytelling.
Also in 2020, Sylvan launched SEGI TV, a free OTT streaming network built on the pillars of equality, sustainability and community which is scheduled to reach 100 million U.S household televisions and 200 million mobile devices across Roku, Amazon Fire TV, Apple TV, Samsung Smart TV and others.
As Executive Producer he currently has several projects in production including The Trials of Eroy Brown, a story about the prison system and how it operated in Texas, based on the best-selling book, as well as a documentary called The Making of Roll Bounce, about the 2005 coming of age film which starred rapper Bow Wow and portrays roller skating culture in 1970’s Chicago.
He sits on the Board of Directors of Uplay Canada, (United Public Leadership Academy for Youth), which prepares youth to be citizen leaders and provides opportunities for Canadian high school basketball players to advance to Division 1 schools as well as the NBA.
A former competitive go kart racer with Checkered Flag Racing Ltd, he also enjoys traveling to exotic locales. Sylvan resides in Vancouver and has two adult daughters.
Sylvan has been featured in Forbes, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times and has been seen on Fox Business News, CBS and NBC. Sycamore Entertainment Group Inc is headquartered in Seattle, with offices in Los Angeles and Vancouver.
Social Impact Authors: How & Why Author Carole Brody Fleet Is Helping To Change Our World was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.