Don’t feel bad if you are not working every free minute on either your writing or yourself, on wellness (as defined by someone with a product to sell) or self-improvement. In other words, guilt is not a useful emotion.
As part of my series about “authors who are making an important social impact”, I had the pleasure of interviewing Aviva Rubin.
Aviva Rubin is the mother of two young men and a Toronto-based writer of memoir, essays and social commentary. Her work has been featured in numerous anthologies, The New York Times, the Globe and Mail, Chatelaine, Toronto Life and Zoomer, amongst others. Rubin is the author of the memoir, Lost and Found in Lymphomaland and her debut novel WHITE.
Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series! Before we dive into the main focus of our interview, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you tell us a bit about your childhood backstory?
I grew up in what was then the suburbs of Toronto, in a middle-class Jewish family. At the time, bo bo balls, chow mein, spaghetti, and chicken soup were considered high ethnic. Irish, Italian, Jewish, and Polish joke books were commonplace, as was mockery of racial difference (oh come on, can’t you take a joke?). While “multiculturalism” was in vogue and people were invited to put on their “costumes” and bring a homeland dish — minus spice — to the MC party, rare was actual interest in other cultures.
There was no Gay pride. Why would anyone be proud of that? Parades consisted of the Orange Parade — go Protestants (only), and the Santa Claus parade which my family attended, as much for the roasted chestnuts as for Santa.
Feminism, then women’s lib, still evoked burnt bra jokes at the expense of the mostly white women who spoke with fervour and commitment, for everyone else. Indigenous anything was barely on anyone’s radar, except those who had and continue to suffer from laws, policies and deep indifference. So basically, I grew up in what gets fondly remembered as the good old days.
My family identified proudly as Jews but was not religious. My parents were liberal in that open and welcoming way, but not activists.
As for me, I’ve always been what now gets called a super-feeler: someone who experiences emotions in more “robust” (over-the-top, excessive) ways, is hyper-sensitive to the emotions of others, and prone to empathy. While this sounds like a recipe for decency and caring in a cold world, it can also be a teary sinkhole where little gets accomplished, and much Kleenex gets used. Super feeling definitely led to a preoccupation with how I’m perceived. It may or may not have led to anti-racist and anti-fascist activism.
When you were younger, was there a book that you read that inspired you to take action or changed your life? Can you share a story about that?
Really? Does anyone have just one? In my teens, I was consumed with the Holocaust. I read Exodus by Leon Uris, Treblinka by Jean Francois Steiner. I read Primo Levi and Eli Wiesel. It boggles my mind that only a teenager’s life worth of years passed between the end of WW ll and when I was born. That’s no time at all, and yet it was enough time for people to falsely believe the world had changed.
It has been said that our mistakes can be our greatest teachers. Can you share a story about the funniest mistake you made when you were first starting? Can you tell us what lesson you learned from that?
Goodness, my life is a series of what could be called mistakes or maybe paths not chosen but stumbled upon, risks not taken, risks taken, that all led here — to the publication of my debut novel WHITE, in my sixties. Maybe if I’d been more selective, if I’d had a clear plan, if I’d done social work despite the fact that classes were at 8:30 am all the way across campus, if I’d found the right person, or wasted way less time bungling relationships, I might be famous by now. Or maybe I wouldn’t have two fantastic sons born of co-parenting with two great gay guys. I mean, who knows?
One mistake I have always made and continue to make, but definitely less, is seeking, then taking advice from anyone offering it. (Like the random woman at the health food store who told me bathing in baking soda would remove chemo toxins — no harm done that time, just money spent on BS) I was raised by a bossy father and an openness to being bossed around seems to have stuck.
Can you describe how you aim to make a significant social impact with your book?
By fantasizing! I don’t write fantasy, but I do have a fantasy or a hope (they are similar) that my novel will make some people stop, think, reconsider, reach out across differences. When I was researching hope for a paper I wrote on the impact of hope and hopefulness post-stroke, I learned that the difference between hope and optimism, is that optimism is the belief that something is likely to transpire, hope is what kicks in when the odds are against us. Hope is fascinating, and for all the troubling, screwed up, hateful behavior that we humans are capable of, we are curiously hopeful. When one hope is dashed, we reach for another. Hope has been likened to a placebo effect, lifting us up and allowing us to move through hardship.
But hope must be accompanied by bravery, by the willingness to speak out when it’s easier to be silent. Hate, in all its forms — intolerance, xenophobia, extremism, fundamentalism, is a toxic blight on humanity. And yet so many people are convinced to head there for (cold) comfort. I don’t know if WHITE will change people’s views, but thankfully people’s views can be changed by connections to others.
Can you share with us the most interesting story that you shared in your book?
WHITE is a work of fiction. It’s the story of a young woman who grows up in a White supremacist family, rejects those views and tries to fight the movement from within. With dire consequences. The stories and characters are mostly invented, but WHITE is grounded in historical events primarily in Canada, but also in the US. Much of the background research comes from Web of Hate, written by Warren Kinsella in the mid 90s, that tracks the history and evolution of White Nationalism, neo-Nazis, skinheads and organizations like the Ku Klux Klan. It also traces the ways in which White nationalist, anti-Semitic and racist ideologies of hate and superiority found their way into the highest political offices of the country. Historical events and figures are woven into the narrative, alongside fictional characters. One such event is Aryan Fest, a gathering that took place in Provost Alberta in the mid-90s. Expanding on Kinsella’s vivid description, I imagine Sarah and her uncle Carl taking part, and the terror that this young woman — both an outsider and in some ways still an insider — feels looking up at a massive burning cross, while those around her chant White Power! Heil! and Death to the Jews!
What was the “aha moment” or series of events that made you decide to bring your message to the greater world? Can you share a story about that?
The idea for WHITE was inspired by what I learned and witnessed as an anti-fascist and anti-racist activist in Toronto in the 90s when Holocaust denial, Ernst Zundel, the Heritage Front, White power and neo-Nazi groups were flourishing in the US and Canada, and the highest courts were being challenged around freedom of speech, hate speech and the right to say anything.
At that time, White supremacy, while a profoundly oppressive anti-Semitic and racist ideology, was shocking, it was very much fringe. And those of us who felt it to be a threat and worthy of chasing down and exposing, were kind of seen as fringe too. Was there really anything to worry about in a world that seemed to be progressively moving in the right direction in terms of human rights and minority rights? If White had been published even as recently as during the Obama administration, it would have been seen as a harsh story, but not a cautionary tale. Today, these hateful views are acceptable and legitimate in many quarters, and the right to express them is aggressively defended. The impact of a work of fiction is relative and depends very much on the context in which it lands, the moment at which it is read.
Without sharing specific names, can you tell us a story about a particular individual who was impacted or helped by your cause?
I would rather tell you about someone who impacted me. The novel was deeply inspired by a very dear friend, an artist and activist who infiltrated a White nationalist women’s group in Montreal in the 1990s. While she did not grow up in a White supremacist family herself, because she could pass in that world, she felt duty bound to expose what was happening there. Her stunning and varied body of work examines and exposes contradictions, ugliness, human quirks and proclivities, all with great humour, and often grounded in the natural world that was a source of comfort, beauty and inspiration to her. When we were out for walks, she could name so many plants and recognize birds by their call. Her boldness, bravery and humour permeate WHITE.
Are there three things the community/society/politicians can do to help you address the root of the problem you are trying to solve?
At the highest level, WHITE is trying to address hate. While the novel focuses on White supremacy, the story could be set in any insular, extremist community or family where harsh judgment and finger pointing reign. We can push for laws or support political parties and platforms that favour human rights and social justice, but, in my opinion, what can be done to help, or change the world, happens, on a granular level, through human connection and friendship. It is both simple and impossibly hard.
A number of years ago, a friend sent me a guided meditation by Frank Ostaseski, a Buddhist teacher, and founder of the Metta Institute. I’m not the meditation type, in fact trying to be still often makes my skin crawl, but the meditation, in his matter of fact, un-cringy voice, points to three actions or concepts that, I believe, help us not only cope with the hardship in our own lives, but could lead to profound change.
Pause. Open. Allow.
Pause — stop rushing. Stop being swept away by the momentum of habit. Hate is so often just a bad habit.
Open — Openness is activated by an interest in knowing. Can your curiosity be greater than your criticality?
Allow — Allowing liberates us from the need to compare, to be either for and against…to hope or to fear.
We spend so much time rushing about, locked in our own fixed attitudes, looking for ways to disallow or ignore anything that challenges those beliefs.
We must pause and make space, open ourselves with heartfelt curiosity, and allow for the possibility that we may not be right about everything! These are choices. Anyone can make them.
How do you define “Leadership”? Can you explain what you mean or give an example?
To me, (good) leadership requires openness and allowing. It’s the ability to point others to the values of pluralism, curiosity and resisting judgment. Traditional leadership is often defined by those who sit, or aspire to sit, atop a country, province, state or organization, and champion agendas that reflect the values we already hold. We want our leaders to mirror us. But once there in those positions, do they really lead, and lead what?
I’ve lived through enough “leaders”, to know that what actually happens is a lot of claiming and promising, often sincere and well-intentioned. But once they have arrived at the top, the negotiating, wheeling, dealing, cajoling and herding people begins. That is not leading.
The leadership that matters lies in modelling our values and behaviour for others. Leading by example. Listening before ramming one’s own beliefs down another person’s throat. Making them gag is unlikely to get you invited back. Leadership is the ability to build trust despite small or large differences. Rather than claiming or believing one can change views across broad swaths of political, religious or racial spectrums and communities, the goal should be to reach out to those on either side of us, not too far, maybe just next door ideologically, and invite them to consider a different way of thinking or being. It involves a willingness to talk, to commune in fact, with people we know even just a little, people we like, even a little, respect, even a little and love even a little. If I can shut up long enough to let others speak their own truths and express their fears, they will be more willing to hear mine. The best kind of leadership will offer little fame or recognition, but it will build community, allegiance and shared goals.
What are your “5 things I wish someone told me when I first started” and why? Please share a story or example for each.
- Best to have even a general idea how your story ends and the approximate path it takes before you begin to write it. I squandered and tested so many words while wandering aimlessly across the country (on paper), trialling and erroring. So many characters (even Sarah’s mother), settings (she was quite a traveller in her early days) and plot lines fell prey to the delete button. In the end, as many pages were rejected, as were kept.
- Stick to what feels right to you, don’t let any Tom, Dick or Harry — whoever they might represent — tell you what to do. The next time someone, like for instance a supposedly eager literary agent, suggests I unravel my entire novel and go chronological rather than jumping back and forth in time, I will first ask if they are willing to sign me. They were not.
- Writing a novel can take a really really long time. I have been working on WHITE, off and on for 14 years. Cancer totally got in the way. During treatment I wrote about that instead and felt really annoyed whenever my main character Sarah started whining about why I wasn’t paying any attention to her. I often found myself yelling (usually in my head) You think you have problems…?!!! I take comfort in the fact that maybe WHITE is more relevant now than ever, and that it was meant to come out in this scary and deeply polarized moment.
- Just because you write really well (or so you’ve always been told) does not mean you will get published and find success. It’s hard sometimes to hold onto this, but you have to write because you love to write. It’s a business full of disappointment, where if you are not getting rejected, you are not doing the work. I’m so grateful to Rebecca Eckler and RE:BOOKS Publishing for taking this risk on this novel. Now we’ll just wait and see. After all, 500,000 to 1 million new novels are published every year in the US alone. That is very daunting!!
- Don’t feel bad if you are not working every free minute on either your writing or yourself, on wellness (as defined by someone with a product to sell) or self-improvement. In other words, guilt is not a useful emotion.
Sadly, guilt, plus worry and regret are some of my most successful emotions. But I do tell myself repeatedly that: It’s OK to not write a gratitude journal; It’s ok if the mindfulness course I took didn’t stick; It’s ok if I eat way too much sugar despite being told by well- meaning know-it-alls, that cancer loves sugar; It’s ok to hate yoga and meditation. While I have contributed a lot of money to the candy and chocolate industry, I’m proud to have given almost nothing to the over 5 trillion dollar global wellness industry.
Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share how that was relevant to you in your life?
Maya Angelou — When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. This brilliant message, posted on my office wall, is the gift that keeps on giving. It would help if I didn’t need the advice over and over, if I actually followed it. But I always crawl back to these words after choosing wrong or letting myself be chosen, or spending way too much time trying to fix relationships that ought never to have been. I’m ready for you now Maya!!
Is there a person in the world, or in the US with whom you would like to have a private breakfast or lunch with, and why? He or she might just see this, especially if we tag them. 🙂
There are so many to pick from. But here are the key criteria. It has to be someone whose ideas and ways of seeing and understanding the world, I admire deeply; someone whose writing makes me gasp; someone who still has hope for change and believes a person like me, might be able to help; someone whose life experience, location and identity, is totally different from mine; someone who is willing, despite the hellishness of constantly being asked what we white folks need to do better, is still open to talking to me about what we white folks need to do better, (and other stuff). I think I’ll go with Ta-Nehisi Coates — Author of Between the World and Me. If he’s open to it.
How can our readers further follow your work online?
Google me, I guess. Or check out my website avivarubin.ca, and on Instagram aviva_rubin_author, Facebook and twitter (no I will not call it X).
This was very meaningful, thank you so much. We wish you only continued success on your great work!
Social Impact Authors: How & Why Author Aviva Rubin Is Helping To Change Our World was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.