Neurodiversity in the Workforce: Katheryn Bermann On Why It’s Important To Include Neurodiverse Employees & How To Make Your Workplace More Neuro-Inclusive
An Interview With Eric Pines
…Simply saying that all are welcome in your company and rolling out DEI initiatives doesn’t cut it. Like I mentioned previously, it’s about the culture of the workplace and whether neurodivergent employees feel safe speaking up. The best indicator of that is how they’re treated day-to-day. To make lasting change, openness to differences needs to be the norm, not the exception. It only takes a moment to think that you’re being rejected, and that’s a hard belief to reverse once it’s happened…
Research suggests that up to 15–20% of the U.S. population is neurodivergent. There has been a slow but vitally important rise in companies embracing neurodiversity. How can companies support neurodiversity in the workplace? What are some benefits of including neurodiverse employees? To address these questions, we are talking to successful business leaders who can share stories and insights from their experience about “Neurodiversity in the Workforce”. As a part of this series, we had the pleasure of interviewing Katheryn Bermann.
Katheryn is the CEO of her own small business, Katheryn Bermann Coaching, which offers holistic wellness coaching and specializes in working with neurodivergent individuals like herself. Katheryn holds an MS in Experimental Psychology, is a military veteran, and has spent several years working in social services. Katheryn also offers Q&A sessions as part of her business for anyone who wants to learn more about neurodiversity.
Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series! Before we dive in, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you tell us a bit about your ‘backstory’ and how you ended up where you are?
I’m an AuDHDer, which means I’ve been diagnosed with both autism and ADHD. I’ve spent decades trying to hide this part of myself. Growing up as I did at a time when “neurodiversity” was barely a word, all I knew was that having autism and ADHD was something that made me different from everyone else. I’ve faced a lot of hardship trying to fit in, from school bullies to unsupportive managers to relationships that were very bad for me. Recently I decided that I was done “masking,” or acting in ways that were expected but personally draining (like making consistent eye contact all the time). I was just tired of spending so much energy trying to be like everyone else, when the fact is, my brain is wired differently. That’s not going to change. So now I’m open about how I think differently and how some things are harder for me. I’ve stopped trying to work against my brain and instead find ways to work with it.
You are a successful leader. Which three character traits do you think were most instrumental to your success? Can you please share a story or example for each?
I consider my greatest strength in general to be compassion. I’ve spent years working with special needs children and families, and I get very invested in them! I worked with one little boy in particular who was extremely bright; wanted to be a doctor, wanted to learn everything he could, and was just a very fun person to work with. But for various reasons, he hadn’t developed a lot of self-regulation skills, and one time, this resulted in a crisis situation. He was very embarrassed, but I told him I wasn’t going anywhere. The crisis didn’t make me want to leave or not work with him, and I would come back tomorrow and the next day for as long as he needed. I would also say patience is a prominent character strength of mine. When I was a teacher, one of my students had the goal to independently wash his hands. This student had high support needs and circumstances that weren’t the greatest. When I started working with them, their support staff told me that they’d been running the handwashing program for months without success and were hoping to get a new goal for him. So I watched what they did. Sometimes I did the same thing, sometimes not. Each day I would say how excited I was to see him independently wash his hands, that he was doing so great with his programming that day that I knew he was going to ace handwashing too. And he did! It took many more months, but when he did, I practically threw a party. He got so much praise and extra goodies! For the third character trait, it’s not nearly as exciting, but I’d say organization. I live out of my paper planner and write everything down by hand. I would much rather be free to pursue my hobbies and interests at my leisure, but I know that I need structure. Otherwise, I’ll get distracted and miss deadlines. I need a visual reminder of what my day is going to look like, and sometimes a list of the things that absolutely have to get done by the end of the day. I still get distracted, but my planner helps me determine what’s important to focus on and what can wait.
Can you share a story about one of your greatest work-related struggles? Can you share what you did to overcome it?
One struggle that really sticks out in my mind happened when I was a warehouse manager. I didn’t overcome it in the sense that I came out victorious or something was resolved in my favor, but it did teach me an important lesson about advocating for myself. I was unexpectedly given a large amount of negative feedback by my new manager. Up until then there had been no concerns shared with me about my performance. Looking back, what it came down to was a difference in communication styles that was being made into a very big deal, but I didn’t realize that when it was happening. I thought I had done something terribly wrong, and my job was in jeopardy. Ultimately, I requested workplace accommodations because I was really struggling to determine what my new manager wanted. I viewed disclosure as a “last resort” and something I really didn’t want to do, but had no sense of job security and didn’t see another option. I was put on a Performance Improvement Plan. I reviewed the plan, and it didn’t address my concerns, but I was told that this is what they were offering, and I could take it or leave it. When I started working for this company, I thought it was a badge of honor to be employed by such a prestigious name, and I put in a lot of unpaid work trying to do well and make a career for myself. But that experience made me realize that people who have made their mind up about you aren’t going to be persuaded. It doesn’t matter what you do, where you work, or what the circumstances are. So I walked away. It wasn’t worth continuing to show up when I was the only one invested in my success.
What are some of the most interesting or exciting projects you are working on now?
I just launched my holistic wellness coaching business not too long ago, so I’m trying to refine the basics of that and make sure everything is compliant. In future I have plans for a signature coaching program, a group coaching program, an online course, various downloadables and infographics, and perhaps branded merch! I have a rough draft of a logo that I need to refine as well. I might also write a book about neurodivergence, and I’d love to hold workshops or go to speaking events. I’ve been on a few podcasts and had a great time. Things are just getting started!
Fantastic. Let’s now shift to our discussion about neurodiversity in the workforce. Can you tell our readers a bit about your experience working with initiatives to include neurodiverse employees? Can you share a story with us?
A phrase you’ll see on a lot of my marketing materials is “no masking required.” Masking (which I mentioned earlier) refers to saying or doing things that are expected but don’t come naturally, like eye contact or small talk. Because I’m neurodivergent myself, I understand how draining masking can be, so my clients are not expected to mask during session. They can keep their camera off, spin around in a chair, or only use the chat feature and not speak at all. In addition, I personally use a green Zoom background that has the logo of the Hidden Disabilities Sunflower Program on it to raise awareness of neurodiversity.
This may be obvious to you, but it will be helpful to spell this out. Can you articulate to our readers a few reasons why it is so important for a business or organization to have an inclusive work culture?
I’ll probably mention this a few times, but diversity in all things is natural. No one variation in any human trait is better than or worse than another. And diversity is the norm. You should expect to encounter and work with people who are different from you, and this is a great thing! If we were all the same, we wouldn’t learn anything.
Can you share a few examples of ideas that were implemented at your workplace to help include neurodiverse employees? Can you share with us how the work culture was affected as a result?
Aside from what I’m doing with my coaching, when I was a warehouse manager, I tried to get an initiative off the ground that I called “vocational enrichment.” A warehouse is an extremely noisy place, but being able to hear what’s going on around you is necessary for your safety. I tried to incorporate brief periods where warehouse workers could excuse themselves and put in earplugs or headphones to disconnect, even for a short while. I was working on getting fidgets and other regulation tools allowed at workstations too. Unfortunately, I had to depart that role due to family circumstances. I’m looking forward to seeing what I can do in the future!
What are some of the challenges or obstacles to including neurodivergent employees? What needs to be done to address those obstacles?
I think much of the challenge comes down to how our society has traditionally viewed anyone who’s different. You look at how those with mental health concerns were treated in the past and it’s horrific. The same goes for people with developmental disabilities. We’ve come a long way since those times, but there’s still a sense that anything unexpected is “bad.” Any action or statement that doesn’t align with what neurotypical society expects is not viewed favorably. I’ve been accused of being aggressive more times that I can count when I had no idea that’s how I was coming across, and asking why they thought I was being aggressive usually only caused more frustration on both sides. Because neurotypicality is the majority, it’s easy to assume that anyone who doesn’t follow what’s expected is doing so intentionally. I’ve seen autistic people accused of “trying to undermine authority” by simply clarifying questions. I’ll mention this later, but a huge portion of the work that needs to be done is changing the mindset with which we approach any kind of difference.
How do you and your organization educate yourselves and your teams on the concept of neurodiversity and the needs of neurodivergent employees? Are there any resources, training, or workshops that you have found particularly helpful?
I’m in a unique situation since I’m self-employed and my whole business is focused on being neuro-affirming. However, I can recommend a lot of resources! I’d start with any lectures or books by Temple Grandin. She’s fantastic! There’s a biopic about her life that I’ve seen multiple times. I’ve read many of the works of John Elder Robison as well. Steve Silberman wrote a book called Neurotribes that’s one of my favorites. It’s fiction, but there’s a book called Out of My Mind that I think everyone should read. Amy Bodkin is a great resource as well, along with Adina Levy.
This is the main question of our interview. Can you please share five best practices that can make a business place feel more welcoming and inclusive of people who are neurodivergent? If you can, please share a few examples.
Much of this will be mindset work because we need to fundamentally change the way we think about neurodivergence (and differences in general) to bring about lasting change.
- If someone says or does something unexpected, react with patience and curiosity. Don’t laugh nervously, change the subject, yell at them, or do anything else negative. Most of these differences hurt no one. For example, when I was in middle school, I would experience internal echolalia a lot. This involved repeating words or phrases to myself inside my head. I heard something funny during class and laughed along with my peers, but I repeated it inside my head because it felt good to laugh. This resulted in me laughing out loud multiple times. And I still remember the sideways looks from my peers that I got for “laughing at nothing.” Trust me; your neurodivergent employees notice every single look like this that they get from their coworkers.
- The exact nature of a person’s disability or neurodivergence is not your business. That doesn’t really need elaboration. Being a kind human should not be conditional on knowing someone’s background or personal information.
- If someone tells you they need extra support, they are the authority on that, not you. What seems perfectly clear or reasonable to you, might only be so to you! No one person’s experience is more valid than another’s. Forget social status or titles. We are all humans experiencing the world, so we all get a say.
- If you think everybody at your company thinks the same way, they don’t. Up to 20% of the population is neurodivergent. That’s one in five people. You don’t know who might be masking or making a huge effort to appear like everyone else. I worked in an office once where I was surrounded by women who loved to be extroverted and expressive. The number of hands on my shoulder, my arm, and friendly hugs I had to endure daily drove me crazy! But because this was the dominant culture, I didn’t feel safe speaking up. I dreaded going to the office every day because I knew it would take a lot of effort not to react to being touched by people I didn’t know.
- Simply saying that all are welcome in your company and rolling out DEI initiatives doesn’t cut it. Like I mentioned previously, it’s about the culture of the workplace and whether neurodivergent employees feel safe speaking up. The best indicator of that is how they’re treated day-to-day. To make lasting change, openness to differences needs to be the norm, not the exception. It only takes a moment to think that you’re being rejected, and that’s a hard belief to reverse once it’s happened.
Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share a story about how that was relevant in your own life?
A phrase my dad would say all the time is “what you do in practice is what you do in the game.” I used to think he was full of it, because practice was no guarantee of game performance. This was my literal autistic mind at work! But now I understand that it’s about habits. The habits that you build in low-stakes environments, like at home, will follow you into high-stakes environments. I went through a period in my life when I was terrified of rocking the boat. I had managed to get connected to a person who wanted to spend time with me, and looking back, I put up with a lot of treatment that I shouldn’t have. But I was terrified of them rejecting me, so I didn’t say anything. The job I was working at the time? I had a bad manager who I never stood up to. Why? Because I had no practice being assertive at home. Thanks Dad: I get it now!
You are a person of enormous influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. 🙂
I want to live in a world where the only label that exists is “human.” Never mind skin color, neurological wiring, disability status, economic status, who you know, or any of that. We are all humans. I don’t want anyone to be judged for their differences, no matter the nature of those differences. Different is not “bad” or “less,” and it’s not something to be feared. Diversity in all things is natural. Let’s start acting like it.
How can our readers further follow your work online?
I’m all over social media! I have a business website, IG, Facebook, and LinkedIn. If you Google my name plus “Linktree,” everything digital is collected into one place.
This was very inspiring. Thank you so much for the time you spent with this. We wish you continued success and good health!
Thank you, this was really fun!
This was very inspiring. Thank you so much for the time you spent with this. We wish you continued success and good health!
About the Interviewer: Eric L. Pines is a nationally recognized federal employment lawyer, mediator, and attorney business coach. He represents federal employees and acts as in-house counsel for over fifty thousand federal employees through his work as a federal employee labor union representative. A formal federal employee himself, Mr. Pines began his federal employment law career as in-house counsel for AFGE Local 1923 which is in Social Security Administration’s headquarters and is the largest federal union local in the world. He presently serves as AFGE 1923’s Chief Counsel as well as in-house counsel for all FEMA bargaining unit employees and numerous Department of Defense and Veteran Affairs unions.
While he and his firm specialize in representing federal employees from all federal agencies and in reference to virtually all federal employee matters, his firm has placed special attention on representing Veteran Affairs doctors and nurses hired under the authority of Title. He and his firm have a particular passion in representing disabled federal employees with their requests for medical and religious reasonable accommodations when those accommodations are warranted under the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 (ADA). He also represents them with their requests for Federal Employee Disability Retirement (OPM) when an accommodation would not be possible.
Mr. Pines has also served as a mediator for numerous federal agencies including serving a year as the Library of Congress’ in-house EEO Mediator. He has also served as an expert witness in federal court for federal employee matters. He has also worked as an EEO technical writer drafting hundreds of Final Agency Decisions for the federal sector.
Mr. Pines’ firm is headquartered in Houston, Texas and has offices in Baltimore, Maryland and Atlanta, Georgia. His first passion is his wife and five children. He plays classical and rock guitar and enjoys playing ice hockey, running, and biking. Please visit his websites at www.pinesfederal.com and www.toughinjurylawyers.com. He can also be reached at [email protected].
Neurodiversity in the Workforce: Katheryn Bermann On Why It’s Important To Include Neurodiverse… was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.