Neurodiversity in the Workforce: Gunter Swoboda of the Making Good Men Great Movement On Why It’s Important To Include Neurodiverse Employees & How To Make Your Workplace More Neuro-Inclusive
An Interview With Eric Pines
True human connection often comes from understanding and empathy. When we view others through the lens of categories, we might make assumptions about their experiences, values, or beliefs. This can prevent us from engaging in genuine conversations where we seek to understand the person beyond the label, limiting the depth and authenticity of interpersonal relationships.
Research suggests that up to 15–20% of the U.S. population is neurodivergent. There has been a slow but vitally important rise in companies embracing neurodiversity. How can companies support neurodiversity in the workplace? What are some benefits of including neurodiverse employees? To address these questions, we are talking to successful business leaders who can share stories and insights from their experience about “Neurodiversity in the Workforce”. As a part of this series, we had the pleasure of interviewing Psychologist and Bestselling Author, Gunter Swoboda.
Gunter holds over 40 years’ experience as a psychologist. His passionate perspectives and scrutinies on what make human beings thrive allows him to develop relationships with people to ignite their aspirations. Gunter is exceptional in facilitating outcomes in learning, productivity, and communication by providing a safe environment with unobtrusive assistance and guidance wherein participants experience the flow between content and context. Swoboda is the creator of the Making Good Men Great program and social movement which gained the attention of BuzzFeed and Oprah. Swoboda is the author of Surfing the New Wave of Masculinity available in stores and online everywhere. He is the writer/producer on the social documentary Masculinity That Inspires Change on Amazon Prime and Host of the iHeartMedia Official podcast: Inspire Change with Gunter that is currently airing in its fifth season and syndicated on all major podcast platforms. He is also a global speaker at various events in the USA such as Book Expo America in New York and events in Los Angeles, as well as a speaker for TEDx in Australia.
Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series! Before we dive in, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you tell us a bit about your ‘backstory’ and how you ended up where you are?
I was born in Vienna, Austria, in a post-fascist atmosphere. My family migrated to Sydney when I was 12 years old. I had to learn English, which was a bit of a challenge. I managed to do that and then adapted to this different culture, especially the beach and surf culture. It gave me a passion for the ocean that I still cherish. I was interested in social, and people issues from an early stage in my teens and growing up in the ’60s and ’70s, I realized the social changes that were happening and what it meant to challenge the norms and conventions. So, I was aware of gender issues, the environment and the anti-war movement. It was meaningful to me because I saw a need for human beings to live more harmoniously together. When I started University, I had the good fortune of meeting my wife and life partner. We are blessed with two grown children who have started families of their own. Being a grandparent is a unique experience that brings its own joys, distinct from those of being a parent. I am extremely proud of my children’s kindness and resilience in the face of adversity. As a young psychologist, I was hesitant to offer parenting advice. However, I eventually realized that our approach to fostering a loving and supportive relationship with our children was effective. I now strive to impart this wisdom to the parents I work with.
When I left University, I started my career as a psychologist working on addictions and PTSD, especially with Vietnam Veterans and the enormous struggles they faced in trying to integrate back into general society. I have to say that, unfortunately, not much has changed. It also awakened my interest in masculinity and understanding its various manifestations. Over the course of my 40-year career in private practice, I have seen a great deal of change in the world around me. As time has passed, I have become increasingly concerned about the state of the planet and the well-being of humanity. It seems that every day brings new challenges and obstacles that we must face together as a society. From environmental degradation and climate change to political unrest and economic inequality, there are many pressing issues that demand our attention and action. Despite these challenges, however, I remain hopeful that we can work together to build a better world for ourselves and future generations. Through collaboration, innovation, and a commitment to social and environmental justice, we can create a brighter, more sustainable future for all. In my work as a therapist, I focus on boys and men. Collectively, we men are not traveling well either psychologically or socially. For the good of everyone, this needs to change. Still, we persist in blame games, polarization and competition that hurts both the individual and society as a whole and where only a small fraction of the population benefits. Great men serve not themselves but serve others. This leads to a more equitable and healthier society.
You are a successful leader. Which three-character traits do you think were most instrumental to your success? Can you please share a story or example for each?
1. Mastery Through Continuous Learning
A successful leader doesn’t rest on their laurels. A leader continuously upgrades their skills and knowledge. By attending workshops, reading the latest literature in their field, and seeking advice from mentors, they ensure they’re at the forefront of their industry or domain. Example: I recall a phase when our organization was facing a technological transition. Instead of delegating the learning process, I delved into the new technology myself, attending courses and seminars. This not only helped me make informed decisions but also earned the respect of my team, seeing that I was willing to get into the trenches and learn.
2. Balance and Harmony
A successful leader recognizes the importance of balance. This includes work-life balance, balancing listening with speaking and balancing assertiveness with empathy. They don’t just focus on results but also on the well-being of their team and the broader implications of their decisions. Example: There was a challenging project deadline, and the team was under significant stress. Recognizing the importance of well-being, I instituted a day each week dedicated to team activities and relaxation, ensuring everyone could recharge. This not only improved morale but, surprisingly, boosted productivity as well.
3. Resilience and Adaptability A successful leader remains resilient in the face of challenges, viewing failures as learning opportunities. Moreover, they’re adaptable and willing to pivot strategies when circumstances change, ensuring the organization remains agile and relevant. Example: During a product launch, initial feedback was far from positive. Instead of viewing this as a setback, I gathered the team, collected feedback, and adapted our strategy. Within months, our revised product outperformed expectations, a testament to the power of resilience and adaptability.
Can you share a story about one of your greatest work-related struggles? Can you share what you did to overcome it?
During my first year at University, I grappled with debilitating exam anxiety. Despite hours of study, the mere thought of an exam would leave my mind blank, overshadowed by dread. My Lecturer in Statistics recognized that I needed support and suggested that I turn to therapy. Through introspection and guidance, I confronted deep-rooted fears of inadequacy and external expectations. The therapeutic techniques, from mindfulness to affirmations, transformed my perspective on exams from looming threats to mere academic milestones. But this journey did more than help me manage anxiety. Experiencing the profound impact of therapy ignited a passion within me. Inspired by my personal transformation, I decided to become a therapist.
What are some of the most interesting or exciting projects you are working on now?
Well, there are a few. Firstly, my ongoing work on Making Good Men Great as a personal growth program as well as a social movement. Writing the second edition of my book Making Good Men Great: Surfing a New Masculinity, working with Noirtainment Productions on a documentary ‘Crisis of Man.’ And, of course, my ongoing clinical work with boys and men.
Fantastic. Let’s now shift to our discussion about neurodiversity in the workforce. Can you tell our readers a bit about your experience working with initiatives to include neurodiverse employees? Can you share a story with us?
The contemporary trend of categorizing people into specific boxes — based on their race, gender, beliefs, or any other attribute — carries with it a paradox. While the intent often stems from a desire to recognize diversity and ensure representation, it can sometimes inadvertently oppose the broader goals of inclusivity. Let’s delve deeper into this idea:
1. Oversimplification of Complex Identities:
Human identities are multifaceted and often don’t fit neatly into one category. By trying to label and box individuals, we might inadvertently erase parts of their identity. This can lead to an oversimplification of the rich tapestry of human experiences, where some threads are prioritized over others. For instance, a person might identify with multiple ethnic backgrounds, but society may label them based on the most “visible” or dominant one, neglecting the rest.
2. Reinforcement of Stereotypes:
Categorizing people can inadvertently reinforce stereotypes. For example, if we pigeonhole individuals based on their gender, race, or profession, we might unconsciously perpetuate certain biases or misconceptions associated with those categories. This can lead to individuals feeling pressure to conform to the perceived norms of their category, suppressing their authentic selves.
3. Divisiveness Over Unity:
Emphasizing categories can sometimes foster an “us vs. them” mentality. Rather than seeing humanity as a unified whole with shared experiences, the focus on categorization can amplify differences. This can inadvertently result in increased divisions, with individuals feeling more allegiance to their specific group than to the broader human collective.
4. Hindrance to Genuine Connection:
True human connection often comes from understanding and empathy. When we view others through the lens of categories, we might make assumptions about their experiences, values, or beliefs. This can prevent us from engaging in genuine conversations where we seek to understand the person beyond the label, limiting the depth and authenticity of interpersonal relationships.
5. Stymied Growth and Evolution:
Labels are constraining. When individuals are put into boxes, they might feel compelled to stay within the confines of that box, limiting personal growth. It might stifle exploration outside of one’s assigned category, be it in terms of beliefs, hobbies, or aspirations.
While the intention behind categorizing people often springs from a place of wanting to ensure visibility and representation, it’s crucial to recognize and address its potential pitfalls. Inclusivity is about more than just recognizing diversity — it’s about embracing the whole human experience without conditions or constraints. As society progresses, it’s essential to find a balance: celebrating diversity while ensuring that in our quest for categorization, we don’t inadvertently create more barriers. This is essential not just in business but in all institutions.
This may be obvious to you, but it will be helpful to spell this out. Can you articulate to our readers a few reasons why it is so important for a business or organization to have an inclusive work culture?
Here are several compelling reasons for businesses and organizations to prioritize inclusivity:
1. Enhanced Innovation and Creativity:
An inclusive environment brings together individuals from diverse backgrounds, experiences, and perspectives. When these diverse viewpoints intersect, they breed creativity and innovation. Different approaches to problem-solving can lead to breakthrough ideas and novel solutions that a more homogenous group might not arrive at.
2. Improved Employee Retention and Satisfaction:
Employees thrive in environments where they feel valued, respected, and included. An inclusive culture fosters a sense of belonging. When employees feel their unique perspectives and identities are acknowledged and celebrated, they are more likely to remain loyal to the company and exhibit higher levels of job satisfaction.
3. Expanded Market Reach and Understanding:
Diverse teams can offer invaluable insights into varied market segments, helping businesses cater to a broader audience. For instance, a team that’s representative of different age groups, ethnicities, and cultural backgrounds can provide a nuanced understanding of those demographics, enabling more effective marketing and product development.
4. Better Decision Making:
Diverse teams tend to make better business decisions. A study by Cloverpop found that inclusive teams make decisions twice as fast as half the meetings, and their decisions deliver 60% better results. The varied perspectives lead to a more comprehensive analysis of situations, resulting in more informed choices.
5. Enhanced Reputation and Employer Branding:
In our interconnected, globalized world, organizations are under constant scrutiny from consumers, potential employees, and stakeholders. Companies known for their inclusive cultures are more appealing to a broader range of customers and potential hires. Inclusivity can become a strong brand differentiator and draw talent and consumers who prioritize diversity and equity.
6. Ethical Imperative:
Beyond the business advantages, there’s an ethical imperative to reflect the diversity of the broader community within an organization. An inclusive work culture promotes equality and fairness, ensuring that everyone, irrespective of their background or identity, has an equal opportunity to thrive and succeed.
7. Economic Performance:
Research has consistently shown that companies committed to diversity and inclusivity perform better economically. A McKinsey report found that companies in the top quartile for racial and ethnic diversity are 35% more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians.
An inclusive work culture is not just a ‘nice-to-have’; it’s a critical component for modern businesses aiming for sustainable success. As organizations navigate an increasingly diverse and globalized world, inclusivity becomes the keystone for innovation, growth, and resilience.
Can you share a few examples of ideas that were implemented at your workplace to help include neurodiverse employees? Can you share with us how the work culture was affected as a result?
Certainly, using the backdrop of the discussed critique on categorizing individuals, I’ll provide a nuanced response to the question:
1. Customizable Workspace Solutions:
Recognizing that neurodiverse individuals might have different sensory needs and preferences, our workplace introduced flexible and customizable workspace solutions. This included options for quieter spaces, adjustable lighting, and noise-cancelling headphones. This move away from a “one-size-fits-all” approach to workspace design allowed employees to choose an environment where they felt most comfortable and productive.
2. Personalized Training & Onboarding:
Instead of a standardized induction process, we implemented a more personalized approach. This ensured that neurodiverse employees could onboard at their own pace, with tailored resources and support. This departure from rigid categorization meant that individuals felt more seen and acknowledged, enhancing their initial experience with the organization.
3. Mentorship Programs:
To further promote inclusivity, we initiated a mentorship program specifically catering to neurodiverse employees. This was not about “assisting” them in the conventional sense but about creating a platform for mutual learning. Neurotypical employees in mentoring roles, often remarked about the fresh perspectives and unique problem-solving approaches they learned through this exchange.
Impact on Work Culture:
Enhanced Empathy: By prioritizing the needs and preferences of neurodiverse employees, there was an overall increase in empathy. Team members became more attuned to the varied needs and strengths of their colleagues, leading to a more compassionate and understanding work environment.
Greater Collaboration: Breaking away from categorizing neurodiverse individuals as simply ‘different,’ the workplace started valuing the unique insights they brought to the table. This led to more inclusive team dynamics, where every voice was heard and considered.
Improved Innovation: By challenging traditional norms and not boxing employees into predefined categories, our teams became more innovative. The diverse cognitive perspectives of neurodiverse employees often led to fresh ideas and solutions that might not have been considered in a more homogenized environment.
Heightened Awareness: The initiatives also educated the broader workforce about neurodiversity. It dispelled many myths and biases, fostering a culture where differences were not just tolerated but celebrated.
Having said this, business and corporate leadership needs to move towards utilizing evidence-based approaches as opposed to the McDonald’s approach, where one size fits all. Many leadership and management strategies have their roots in the Industrial Revolution of over 150 years ago. That is ridiculous, and much of it is infused with patriarchal values of power, prestige, status and competition. Corporate, social and educational processes need to shed this. Irrespective of neurodiversity or being neurotypical. By moving away from rigid categorizations and embracing a more individualized and nuanced understanding of neurodiversity, the work culture became richer, more empathetic, and innovative. It served as a testament to the benefits of truly inclusive environments that value each person’s unique contributions beyond any labels.
What are some of the challenges or obstacles to including neurodivergent employees? What needs to be done to address those obstacles?
Incorporating neurodivergent employees into the workplace provides a plethora of benefits, from varied perspectives to innovative problem-solving approaches. However, there are several challenges and obstacles to effectively doing so. Here’s a breakdown:
Challenges to Including Neurodivergent Employees:
Lack of Understanding and Awareness: Many employers and employees have limited knowledge about neurodiversity, which can result in misconceptions, biases, and a lack of effective support structures.
Standardized Recruitment Processes: Traditional hiring practices, like group interviews or timed tests, may not be suitable for neurodivergent individuals, leading to their unintentional exclusion.
Workplace Rigidities: Set working hours, specific workplace environments, or inflexible job roles might not cater to the diverse needs of neurodivergent employees.
Communication Gaps: Standard communication protocols or team dynamics might not be optimized for individuals who communicate or process information differently.
Stigma and Bias: There can be unfounded biases against neurodivergent individuals, questioning their competency or fit for certain roles.
Lack of Training: Managers and HR personnel might not have the necessary training to support or understand the needs of neurodivergent employees.
Addressing the Obstacles:
Educational Initiatives: Regular workshops, seminars, and training sessions can help in raising awareness and understanding of neurodiversity. This not only dispels myths but also equips employees with tools to be more inclusive.
Adaptive Recruitment Strategies: Redesign recruitment processes to be more inclusive. This might include providing additional time for tests, offering alternative interview formats, or explicitly stating in job ads that neurodivergent individuals are encouraged to apply.
Flexible Work Environments: Allow for varied working hours, remote work options, or customizable workspaces to cater to different sensory or environmental needs.
Clear and Varied Communication: Embrace various communication tools and methods to ensure that all employees can understand and be understood effectively. This might include written summaries of meetings, visual aids, or regular one-on-ones.
Peer Support and Mentorship: Implement mentorship programs where neurodivergent employees can have a direct line of support and guidance, ensuring they have the resources to succeed.
Leadership Training: Equip managers with the skills and understanding needed to support neurodivergent team members effectively. This can involve understanding different neurodivergent conditions, knowing how to adapt communication methods, and being aware of potential accommodations.
How do you and your organization educate yourselves and your teams on the concept of neurodiversity and the needs of neurodivergent employees? Are there any resources, training, or workshops that you have found particularly helpful?
The inclusion of neurodivergent individuals is not just about overcoming challenges but realizing the untapped potential and strengths they bring to the table. By being proactive and adaptive, organizations can pave the way for a richer, more diverse, and innovative workplace. But on this point, let me posit the following argument. We still have a long way to go to level out gender equity, let alone the issues of adapting to neurodiversity. My view is that we should not constantly fall into the reductionist trap of categorizing human behavior. I’ll give you an example: there is a constant reference in social media about biohacking, dopamine hacking, and so on. Human beings simply do not operate in this way. We are, as a whole, more than the sum of our parts. There are several recent studies in neuroscience that suggest the entire brain may be involved in language processing, not just a few specific regions traditionally identified as “language centers”.
This is the main question of our interview. Can you please share five best practices that can make a business place feel more welcoming and inclusive of people who are neurodivergent?
1. Emotional Intelligence:
The ability to recognize, understand, and manage one’s emotions, as well as the emotions of others, allows for empathetic and effective interactions.
2. Respect for All:
A genuine appreciation and acknowledgment of the intrinsic worth of every individual, regardless of their gender, race, status, or background.
3. Humility in Victory and Grace in Defeat:
The capacity to remain grounded and humble in success and to learn and grow from failures without being consumed by them.
4. Continuous Personal Growth:
An unyielding commitment to self-improvement, be it in terms of knowledge, skills, emotional depth, or spiritual growth.
5. Collaboration over Competition:
Valuing synergy and collective accomplishments over individual gains, understanding that collaboration often leads to more significant and more sustainable outcomes.
Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share a story about how that was relevant in your own life?
‘Life requires us to balance strength with finesse, action with reflection, and the external world with our internal compass.” This is Inspired by Miyamoto Musashi’s teachings.
You are a person of enormous influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. 🙂
In 2014, I began a journey of bringing ‘Making Good Men Great’ to the community. My mission is to help men and women understand the toxicity of patriarchy in the very depth of the fabric of our culture and how it is possibly the most significant factor in the decline of mental health, the demise of democracy and the increase of poverty and climate destruction
How can our readers further follow your work online?
https://www.gunterswoboda.com/
https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/inspire-change-with-gunter/
This was very inspiring. Thank you so much for the time you spent with this. We wish you continued success and good health!
Thank you for having me!
Neurodiversity in the Workforce: Gunter Swoboda of the Making Good Men Great Movement On Why It’s… was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.