An Interview With Vanessa Ogle
Genuinely care about others: Make it a daily practice to care about people as human beings, not just as employees.
Toxic work environments can have a significant impact on employees’ mental health, productivity, and overall job satisfaction. From poor communication and office politics to bullying and burnout, toxicity in the workplace can manifest in many forms. What are the most effective strategies to address and overcome these challenges? How can organizations and employees work together to create healthier, more supportive work environments? In this interview series, we are talking with with leaders, HR professionals, organizational psychologists, business leaders, and experts about “Navigating Workplace Toxicity: Strategies for a Healthier Work Environment.” As a part of this series I had the pleasure of interviewing
Michael Puck is a business innovator and visionary keynote speaker; he enables companies to turn people- centric problems into competitive advantages. His diverse international background, 25 years of hands-on HR leadership experience, and passion for people fuel his role as the HR Innovation Fellow with the Human Insights Group at UKG.
Puck graduated from the German Air Force Academy. During his time in the military, he earned a degree in business and a postgraduate degree in economics from VWA in Essen, Germany. Additionally, Puck is a Senior Certified Professional with the Society of Human Resource Management (SHRM-SCP), a published author, 2x TEDx Speaker, and the President of a global animal-focused nonprofit that aims to save 1 million dogs by 2030.
Thank you so much for doing this with us! Before we dig in, our readers would like to get to know you a bit more. Can you share the most interesting story that happened to you since you began your career?
Twenty-five years ago, I was laughed out of the boardroom for suggesting a cutting-edge approach to mitigate skyrocketing healthcare costs. Our business had faced a combined 45% increase in healthcare premiums over just two years. Despite the toxic culture within the leadership team, I persisted with my idea.
After nine months of relentless effort, I secured funding to pilot a new well-being program. The pilot was a resounding success, with over 92% of employees actively participating from the start. This success led to the program’s enterprise-wide rollout, impacting 45,000 employees and achieving a first-year cost avoidance of $42 million.
The lesson I learned: Sometimes you have to stick to your guns, especially when your gut tells you that you’ve found something truly impactful.
Can you share a story about the funniest mistake you made when you were first starting? Can you tell us what lesson you learned from that?
Almost 30 years ago, my German employer sent me to the US to act as a “buffer” between the President of our small US branch and the local employees. At that time, I only had intermediate school English skills. Despite this, I was given responsibility for seven departments — a recipe for potential disaster.
I vividly remember a one-on-one conversation with a female employee. She was clearly very upset, speaking quickly and with significant emotional charge. I could barely understand half of what she said. Instead of asking for clarification, I responded based on the little I did understand. Suddenly, she started crying. Two minutes later, she was very upset with me, jumped out of her chair, left my office, and slammed the door so hard I feared the glass would shatter.
This happened a long time ago, and to this day, I still have no clue what that conversation was about — not the foggiest idea. It’s funny now, but it wasn’t funny back then. The lesson I learned that day is to always ask questions if something is even remotely unclear or doesn’t make sense to me. Since then, I have cultivated empathetic listening, which has paid off greatly over the years.
Is there a particular book that made a significant impact on you? Can you share a story or explain why it resonated with you so much?
Marcus Buckingham’s “Now, Discover Your Strengths” had a profound impact on me. It taught me the importance of aligning people’s strengths and interests with their responsibilities at work. Inspired by the book, I had my entire team read it. We then created a matrix listing every task our team handled and reassigned responsibilities to ensure the best match between each team member’s strengths and their tasks.
The results were remarkable. Work became much smoother and more fun. We managed to double the number of employees our team supported without needing to hire additional staff. In an enterprise-wide comparison, we achieved the lowest HR staff-to-workforce ratio in an organization of 45,000 employees. This experience underscored the power of leveraging individual strengths for collective success.
Do you have a favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Do you have a story about how that was relevant in your life or your work?
“The is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face”. — Ben Williams.
Back Story: Growing up I had extensive trust issues triggered by a boiling water accident at the age of four that burned both of my legs. Because of the third degree burns nobody was allowed to visit for the first ten days, not even my parents. While this helped to reduce the risk of infection, it causes mental health issues that nobody anticipated, diagnosed or treated.
I left the hospital a changed child. The happy energetic boy that I used to be did not exists anymore. I isolated myself and withdrew from life. I experienced so much fear and uncertainty that everything turned into drama. Do I go shopping with mom or stay at home with dad? This simple question could occupy my mind for hours and the more time elapsed the more frantic my thinking and behavior become. Simple events like this frequently included screaming and crying and running back and forth between the options, making my parents lives miserable.
And then, at the age of 12, eight long years after the boiling water accident, everything changed. I fell in love with an amazingly beautiful girl. Even though we had never met before, she acted as if I was her long-lost soul mate. She greeted me with excitement, jumped on my lap and started licking my face. Cora, my first dog, became my partner in experiencing the world in a different light. She was the social catalyst that saved my mental health and maybe even my life. Having experienced first-hand the power of dogs, the quote from Ben Williams deeply resonates with me.
What does workplace toxicity mean?
Reflecting on my own experiences as an employee, HR leader and retired officer of the German Air Force, workplace toxicity refers to an environment where negative behaviors and attitudes are prevalent, leading to a harmful and stressful atmosphere. In such environments, individuals often avoid accountability by blaming the system or others for their own failures and shortcomings, and people do not take responsibility for their actions or behaviors. The absence of trust fosters competitiveness, cynicism, and escalates conflicts, creating a high-stress environment where employees are constantly on edge, unsure of when the next shoe will drop. Additionally, people interpret statements and actions as potential threats or personal attacks, having lost the benefit of the doubt. These factors contribute to a toxic workplace, making it challenging for employees to feel safe, valued, and productive.
Can you describe a time when you personally encountered or helped resolve workplace toxicity?
Early in my career, I had a boss who was so insecure that she never took responsibility when something went wrong, even if it was her idea, project, or approach that caused the failure. Additionally, she was so emotionally unstable that everyone dreaded her presence. Her mood swings, combined with screaming and threatening employees, could erupt at any moment, creating the most toxic and unpredictable environment.
She had the full support of the leadership team, mostly because she was on her best behavior and very charming when dealing with her peers. Unable to find a way to improve the environment, I decided to remove myself from it. After a year on the job, I requested to either be fired or transitioned to a different function. I was transitioned to a great career opportunity, which kept me at the same company for another 14 years.
What were the key signs that the environment was toxic?
Every employee in the department was suffering from chronic stress and burnout and dreaded going to work.
The constant blaming in combination with the high-volume, high-pressure work environment negatively impacted relationships among peers, which led to friction and work errors. It was a vicious cycle.
What are some of the most common causes of toxic work environments, and how can leaders recognize these issues before they become pervasive?
A lack of trust between managers and employees, and on a larger scale between employers and employees, is foundational and omnipresent in toxic environments. Trust is essential for employees to give the benefit of the doubt. Without it, innocent statements and remarks are seen as potential threats and signs of deceit.
A major, often hidden, aspect of toxic environments is when companies fail to understand and address employee expectations. Research by the Workforce Institute at UKG has found that 63% of what today’s employees expect has nothing to do with pay or benefits. Instead, it is deeply rooted in their desire to be seen, heard, and connected. Beneath these three high-level expectations are 11 specific employee expectation categories.
Identifying lack of trust between employers and employees is relatively difficult, as lack of trust can come disguised in the form of many different symptoms. Research has found that, high attrition, lack of innovation, low employee engagement, high stress, high burnout, Union representation, low speed, high cost, and several other issues that challenge today’s businesses are caused to large degree by a lack of trust, but many companies chase after the symptoms instead of addressing the root cause.
I have developed a free research-based online assessment tool that enables companies to better understand their employees and build trust to replace toxic environments engaging employee-centric cultures.
What steps can employees take to address workplace toxicity if they feel uncomfortable or unsupported by leadership?
Addressing workplace toxicity largely depends on the level of toxicity and the existing company culture. In company-centric environments, where employees are viewed merely as means to an end, it is a long and difficult process to tackle workplace toxicity. This is because the existing culture reinforces a focus on revenue and profit, treating employees as cogs in a machine.
Conversely, in environments that are more aligned with employee-centric thinking, where employees are key stakeholders, the first important step is to overcommunicate. This means communicating early and frequently with your employees.
In both types of environments, practicing the ABCs of trust is the quickest way to build trust between leaders and their employees. The ABCs of trust include:
- A = Accomplishments/Achievements
- B = Be your word/Integrity
- C = Care about others
- C = Consistency
While all four components are crucial, it is even more important for individuals and companies to understand where to start. The default starting point should always be “C” for caring about others. Starting with “A” can quickly backfire and reduce trustworthiness, especially if applied in the absence of “C.”
What role does mental health play in navigating workplace toxicity, and how can both employees and organizations prioritize mental wellness?
Toxic environments are also high-stress environments that push individuals toward burnout. High-trust environments have 74% less stress and 40% lower burnout rates than low trust environments. High chronic stress is a significant contributing factor for mental health issues but is it important to distinguish between job specific stress (inherent stress) and unnecessary stress caused by toxic environments.
The job of a trauma surgeon is undoubtedly stressful, but he/she might work in a high-trust environment where things like conflicts, red tape, cynicism, competitiveness, micromanagement and toxic culture are kept to a minimum. The job of an accountant on the other hand should have a relative low job specific stress level. The dimensions considered here include variables such as life and death decisions, liability, public safety, time pressure, national security, and high financial impact. While the average accountant should fall on the low stress end of this spectrum, his or her level of unnecessary stress might be exceptionally high, and as a result, the surgeon and the accountant might experience similar levels of stress. See graphics below
The most effective way for companies to support mental health is by reducing the unnecessary stressors within the organization, which is achieved by building high-trust environments.
Can you share some strategies or practices that individuals and teams can implement to create a healthier and more productive work environment? Please share your “5 Strategies For A Healthier Work Environment”?
- Genuinely care about others: Make it a daily practice to care about people as human beings, not just as employees.
- Be your word: Apply integrity in everything you do. Beyond showing integrity to others, hold yourself accountable for the commitments you make to yourself. This is often more challenging but, once mastered, becomes an incredible source of personal power.
- Overcommunicate: Communicate earlier than you feel comfortable and more frequently than you think necessary. From the employee’s perspective, it’s very hard to overcommunicate.
- Understand employee expectations: 63% of employee expectations (specific to the U.S.) are deeply rooted in wanting to be seen, heard, and connected. Study the 11 categories of employee expectations that help them feel seen, heard, and connected.
- Identify areas for improvement: After completing a free self-assessment (link), identify one area for improvement to focus on over the next 90 days. Then, rinse and repeat.
Thank you for these fantastic insights. We greatly appreciate the time you spent on this.
About The Interviewer: Vanessa Ogle is a mom, entrepreneur, inventor, writer, and singer/songwriter. Vanessa’s talent in building world-class leadership teams focused on diversity, a culture of service, and innovation through inclusion allowed her to be one of the most acclaimed Latina CEO’s in the last 30 years. She collaborated with the world’s leading technology and content companies such as Netflix, Amazon, HBO, and Broadcom to bring innovative solutions to travelers and hotels around the world. Vanessa is the lead inventor on 120+ U.S. Patents. Accolades include: FAST 100, Entrepreneur 360 Best Companies, Inc. 500 and then another six times on the Inc. 5000. Vanessa was personally honored with Inc. 100 Female Founder’s Award, Ernst and Young’s Entrepreneur of the Year Award, and Enterprising Women of the Year among others. Vanessa now spends her time sharing stories to inspire and give hope through articles, speaking engagements and music. In her spare time she writes and plays music in the Amazon best selling new band HigherHill, teaches surfing clinics, trains dogs, and cheers on her children.
Please connect with Vanessa here on linkedin and subscribe to her newsletter Unplugged as well as follow her on Substack, Instagram, Facebook, and X and of course on her website VanessaOgle.
Navigating Workplace Toxicity: Michael Puck Of UKG On Strategies for a Healthier Work Environment was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.