Navigating Workplace Toxicity: Deborrah Himsel Of Eller Executive Education On Strategies for a Healthier Work Environment
An Interview With Vanessa Ogle
Be aware of changes in an individual’s behavior — increased absences, mistakes, mood swings, lack of engagement, etc.
Identify individuals who may be trauma-triggered. I had one female employee who was triggered by a male co-worker because he reminded and treated her like her ex-husband. Many of these indicators are easily trackable while others are a bit trickier to uncover.
Toxic work environments can have a significant impact on employees’ mental health, productivity, and overall job satisfaction. From poor communication and office politics to bullying and burnout, toxicity in the workplace can manifest in many forms. What are the most effective strategies to address and overcome these challenges? How can organizations and employees work together to create healthier, more supportive work environments? In this interview series, we are talking with with leaders, HR professionals, organizational psychologists, business leaders, and experts about “Navigating Workplace Toxicity: Strategies for a Healthier Work Environment.” As a part of this series I had the pleasure of interviewing Deborrah Himsel.
Deborrah is a globally recognized leadership development expert, executive coach, and author, known for her engaging conference presentations and workshops. She has held executive roles at Avon and Deutsche Bank, where she spearheaded significant cultural transformations. Her expertise in leadership, organizational culture, and change management is sought after by a diverse range of Fortune 500 companies. Deborrah is also a published author and adjunct faculty member at the University of Arizona’s Eller School of Management.
Thank you so much for doing this with us! Before we dig in, our readers would like to get to know you a bit more. Can you tell us a bit about your “backstory”? What led you to this particular career path?
When I’m asked this, I tell people that I grew up on this work. My mother was an Industrial Organizational Psychologist, and my father was a general in the Indiana National Guard and leadership and workplace challenges were our dinner conversation.
Can you share the most interesting story that happened to you since you began your career?
My most interesting story was how I came up with the idea for my first book, Leadership Sopranos Style, a serious but fun book with the character of Tony Soprano from the HBO series, The Sopranos, as a metaphor for good and bad leadership. I was watching the episode where Tony Soprano tells his mob guys that he’s seeing a psychiatrist. He tells them, “give it to my face”. “You have 5 minutes to tell me what you think about this and then we’ll never discuss it again.” I realized that this was a brilliant way to get feedback from others. I decided that this would make a fun book and that if I did not write it, someone else would.
Can you share a story about the funniest mistake you made when you were first starting? Can you tell us what lesson you learned from that?
I’m not sure how funny this is but when I was offered a terrific role at Pfizer for almost double the salary I was currently making, I told the hiring manager that I needed to think about it. I thought that’s what you were supposed to say. He later told me how surprised and disappointed he was — it was a great job, company and offer. I learned that if a job opportunity is right, go for it and let people know how excited you are.
Is there a particular book that made a significant impact on you? Can you share a story or explain why it resonated with you so much?
Adam Grant’s book, Think Again had a big impact on me at the right time. To me his book is about being curious and perspective taking with an open mind. As the roles between my mother and I shifted as she grew older, developing more health issues and needing more care, she was often frustrated with feeling invisible and not being heard. She sometimes accused me of these behaviors as well. Grant’s book helped me to deepen and transfer my professional kills to my personal life. For me, taking “joy in being wrong” and motivational interviewing helped strengthen the relationship with my mother.
Do you have a favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Do you have a story about how that was relevant in your life or your work?
One of my favorite quotes is attributed to John Burroughs, “Leap and the net will appear”. With every career and personal transition, that quote has always helped me to keep moving forward.
Ok, thank you for that. Let’s now jump to the primary focus of our interview. Let’s start with a simple definition so that all of us are on the same page.
What does workplace toxicity mean?
What the various workplace toxicity definitions have in common are negative behaviors that could run the gamut from illegal behaviors such as sexual or physical harassment and discrimination, to bullying, manipulation, intimidation, yelling, excessive workload that may lead to poor work life balance, gaslighting and even micromanagement. These behaviors often lead to turnover, low productivity, increased stress levels, burnout and other mental health challenges. Many of these behaviors can be easy to spot but some may be more difficult to tease out, as the same set of behaviors may have a different impact from person to person. What’s teasing or typical workplace banter to one may be toxicity or disrespect to another.
Can you describe a time when you personally encountered or helped resolve workplace toxicity?
I have two relevant examples that come to mind. One is where I experienced workplace toxicity firsthand in a company that I previously worked for. There was growing tension between the HR and Finance groups, over errors in employee data that were input by HR and then used by Finance for payroll and other reports. Input errors by HR resulted in rework, overtime and frustration by the Finance team. Although the HR team attempted to fix the errors, no fix was simple, and resolution took longer than expected. During the intervening time, two of the senior Finance team bullied (verbally and through email), the HR person responsible for the data input and berated that individual to all others on the Finance team. We called in a third party to intervene but were not able to complete the work, as the company was sold. My lesson learned was the impact this had not only on the entire HR team but on the individual, who was the recipient of the toxicity. The bullied individual ended up in therapy, having suffered trauma and subsequently PTSD. Although I believe she grew stronger from this experience, it should have never been allowed to progress as far as it did. This is a lesson that I carry with me every day.
The second example is with a leader that I am currently coaching. I was called in by the CEO and HR head, as there had been a series of complaints that the leader of this group was verbally abusive to his employees — using foul language and berating them. When I talked to his direct reports, most did not want to come to work. They would have liked to have left the company but were being paid well and the benefits were good. It was clear, however, that they were less engaged and not as productive as they could have been. This leader is technically brilliant, and the organization wanted to provide him resources to overcome his challenges. My coaching of him has been about learning how to communicate, coach and motivate, while ensuring accountability and results.
What were the key signs that the environment was toxic?
The signs were easy to spot in both cases. There were complaints to management and HR. There was a palatable tension in the air both in person and virtually — people were on edge. There were increased absences and requests to work remotely from all sides. Because there was more stress, there were also more mistakes, lower productivity and lower engagement scores from annual surveys.
What are some of the most common causes of toxic work environments, and how can leaders recognize these issues before they become pervasive?
Since there can be several aspects that define a toxic work environment, there are numerous causes.
Employees are experiencing increased personal stress, and this often bleeds over into bad and unproductive workplace behaviors. When people are stressed, they default to behaviors that help them cope and these behaviors are usually unfiltered — blaming others, yelling or using foul language, the silent treatment, barking orders, etc. In addition, if an individual feels powerless or victimized in their personal life, they may try and reclaim power through bullying or belittling comments. Leaders need to be cognizant of the stress levels in their organization and how their employees are responding.
With the individual I am coaching now, he was managing his team the way that he was managed. Oddly enough, yelling and screaming was the leadership approach that motivated him. This was also the way he was parented. For some of his team, this behavior was at least tolerated or blown off. For others it was debilitating. We know that this type of behavior is unacceptable.
Employees are reporting higher stress related to increased workloads. Burnout levels are on the rise. Many companies are taking aggressive action to market the advantages of taking PTO. Others have banned emails on the weekend and after hours. The office and home boundaries have blurred, and many are reclaiming them
Lastly, I’m finding that many leaders are lacking basic management and communication skills. I often find that managers do not understand their role of coach and teacher. Many micromanage (a symptom of workplace toxicity), because they either have a high need for control or have not learned how to let go and delegate.
What steps can employees take to address workplace toxicity if they feel uncomfortable or unsupported by leadership?
The first course of action is to always follow the chain of command in reporting the toxcicity. Talk with your manager and be clear on the toxic behaviors and the impact on you and others. If you’re fearful, most organizations have hotlines that retain anonymity. If you use a hotline, be sure and provide enough specificity that it can be properly investigated. If there’s no action, then lodging a complaint to HR will usually trigger some type of investigation. What is often the hardest to take action on is when toxicity emanates from an employee who has a critical skill that is difficult to replace. By not taking action, however, you are potentially harming others in a way that you may have never envisioned.
What role does mental health play in navigating workplace toxicity, and how can both employees and organizations prioritize mental wellness?
Seeing someone’s self-esteem crumble due to workplace toxicity is something I hope to never experience again. I am optimistic that this article can help raise awareness of the impact that negative behaviors can have.
Research has shown that between 77 and 81% of the workforce has experienced work-related stress with 57% of these saying that stress has had a negative impact on them. At my last organization, I had an ongoing list of employees that I knew had mental health challenges. I regularly checked in with them and ensured they had the resources they needed.
Progressive organizations are prioritizing mental health as an issue. One of my former organizations, Deutsche Bank has an Employee Resource Group for mental health challenges and employees trained to provide peer-to-peer support. The topic is not taboo but openly discussed.
Ok super. Here is the main question of our interview: Can you share some strategies or practices that individuals and teams can implement to create a healthier and more productive work environment?
One of the practices that has been successful with my clients has been to develop norms, working agreements and/or values for working together. As a group we’ve developed these and the team and its leader are responsible for revisiting them on an ongoing basis. In these discussions, we get as specific as possible regarding what’s acceptable/not acceptable. Discussions vary from email and Teams/Zoom etiquette to practicing giving and receiving feedback. If teams have had difficulties in the past, the focus is on resetting and what needs to be done to move forward and practicing alternative ways to communicate. To make this work, teams need to continuously revisit these until it becomes a more natural way of working. Changing behavior is difficult and it take intentionality and focus.
Being an executive coach and educator, I am a strong proponent of building better listening, influence and conflict management skills. In my coaching practice, I also spend significant time having leaders develop self-awareness and adaptive leadership skills. I believe most humans want to treat each other in a healthy way but often don’t understand the impact and unintended consequences of their behaviors on others.
Can you share some strategies or practices that individuals and teams can implement to create a healthier and more productive work environment?Please share your “5 Strategies for A Healthier Work Environment”?
If you can, please share an example or story for each.
1. Define acceptable and unacceptable behavior clearly and compellingly.
The isolation during COVID caused some people to forget office etiquette — from basic courtesy to communicating properly. Company leaders need to discuss these behaviors and agree on do’s and don’ts — and formalize them in policies and the Employee Handbook. Be specific enough about unacceptable behaviors. For instance, create a policy about office romances — about everything from what is allowed (i.e., dating among colleagues) to what is not (boss-direct report dating). One of my clients just had to terminate two employees who were dating and whose office romance behaviors were causing a toxic workplace.
2. Nip unacceptable behaviors in the bud.
Allowing bad behavior to persist encourages others to engage in it. If it goes on too long, it becomes toxic to the culture.
3. View situations with empathy and perspective.
Try and see issues from the other’s person’s point of view. For instance, understand that we all have differing levels of resilience. Just because something rolls off your back doesn’t mean it will for someone else. I had an employee tell me, “Debbie, you don’t know what it’s like to try and save for a house and to start a family on the salary I’m making. “I realized she was right, and I proceeded to better understand her situation.
4. Be aware of changes in an individual’s behavior — increased absences, mistakes, mood swings, lack of engagement, etc.
Identify individuals who may be trauma-triggered. I had one female employee who was triggered by a male co-worker because he reminded and treated her like her ex-husband. Many of these indicators are easily trackable while others are a bit trickier to uncover.
5. Be sensitive to the challenges the workforce is facing and take action.
One of my clients just conducted a series of “Listening Moments” with their employees to go deeper in understanding engagement scores and develop actions to address them.
You are a person of great influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good for the greatest number of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger.
I’d like to see mandatory skill development in civil discourse. This election and the lack of civil discourse and perspective taking has so weakened our society. I try to do a small part in teaching these skills in the workplace. I often say that I help leaders either build skills or unlearn unproductive ones. We need to do more.
Again, communicate what’s acceptable and what’s not. Rudeness has become epidemic in our society. People feel free to dismiss or even eviscerate those who hold different views from their own. Leaders need to set standards for discourse in a way that creates psychological safety. This doesn’t mean preventing people from disagreeing with each other but establishing norms for disagreeing productively and civilly.
We are very blessed that some very prominent names in Business, VC funding, Sports, and Entertainment read this column.
Is there a person in the world, or in the US with whom you would love to have a private breakfast or lunch with, and why? He or she might just see this if we tag them.
Well, I tried to narrow it down to one person but what would really inspire me would be to gather the top 10 thinkers in my field such as Adam Grant, Amy Edmundson, Simon Sinek, etc. and tackle workplace toxicity once and for all.
How can our readers further follow your work online?
On the Eller College of Management website, https://executive.eller.arizona.edu
follow me on LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/in/deborrahhimsel
My upcoming book is about reimagining C-Suite teams.
Thank you for these fantastic insights. We greatly appreciate the time you spent on this.
About The Interviewer: Vanessa Ogle is a mom, entrepreneur, inventor, writer, and singer/songwriter. Vanessa’s talent in building world-class leadership teams focused on diversity, a culture of service, and innovation through inclusion allowed her to be one of the most acclaimed Latina CEO’s in the last 30 years. She collaborated with the world’s leading technology and content companies such as Netflix, Amazon, HBO, and Broadcom to bring innovative solutions to travelers and hotels around the world. Vanessa is the lead inventor on 120+ U.S. Patents. Accolades include: FAST 100, Entrepreneur 360 Best Companies, Inc. 500 and then another six times on the Inc. 5000. Vanessa was personally honored with Inc. 100 Female Founder’s Award, Ernst and Young’s Entrepreneur of the Year Award, and Enterprising Women of the Year among others. Vanessa now spends her time sharing stories to inspire and give hope through articles, speaking engagements and music. In her spare time she writes and plays music in the Amazon best selling new band HigherHill, teaches surfing clinics, trains dogs, and cheers on her children.
Please connect with Vanessa here on linkedin and subscribe to her newsletter Unplugged as well as follow her on Substack, Instagram, Facebook, and X and of course on her website VanessaOgle.
Navigating Workplace Toxicity: Deborrah Himsel Of Eller Executive Education On Strategies for a… was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.