An Interview With Drew Gerber
Take some of your free time back by reducing the number of activities you engage in every day. Let yourself feel the deep emotions and aliveness that are underneath the everyday busyness.
We live in a time of great excess. We have access to fast fashion, fast food, and fast everything. But studies show that all of our “stuff” is not making us any happier. How can we simplify and focus on what’s important? How can we let go of all the clutter and excess and find true happiness? In this interview series, we are talking to coaches, mental health experts, and authors who share insights, stories, and personal anecdotes about “How Simplifying and Decluttering Your Life Can Make Us Happier.” As a part of this series, I had the distinct pleasure of interviewing Max Tsymbalau.
Max Tsymbalau MS, LMHC is a psychotherapist practicing in Seattle, WA, with a focus on anxiety, depression, and trauma. Max works with highly intelligent/gifted adults, executives, IT professionals, and others seeking significant positive change in their lives. His therapeutic approach is based on a mix of internal family systems, somatic, psychodynamic, and cognitive-behavioral modalities. To learn more, please visit Max’s website at maxcounseling.com.
Thank you so much for doing this with us! Before we dive in, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you share your “backstory” with us? What was it that led you to your eventual career choice?
My interest in psychotherapy began with a “Human Sexuality and Culture” class which I took as an undergraduate at the University of Minnesota. The class relied heavily on psychoanalytic theory, which opened my eyes to the power of the unconscious. This was also the first time that I had a chance to learn at length about the psychotherapist profession. I got so curious that I emailed a few therapists in town asking to talk to them about what they did, and most of them were kind enough to give me some of their time. I really enjoyed hanging out with them and thought to myself, “These folks seem to have really exciting and fulfilling jobs; I wonder if I could do what they do?” Shortly afterwards, I changed my college major to psychology and never looked back.
Can you share the most interesting story that happened to you since you started your career?
My work is such that each day inevitably brings a new adventure, crisis, or triumph — but these stories are, of course, protected by client confidentiality. Something I can share with you is just how varied the arc of my career has been: I have worked with people with severe mental illness, lead therapeutic music groups with kids and adults, chased teenagers running away from residential treatment, counseled university students, and worked in community mental health with the most diverse clientele. And all this was before I ever started my private practice!
Are you working on any exciting new projects now? How do you think that will help people?
I am currently researching the interconnection between mental health and high intelligence, since a lot of my clients tend to be gifted adults. High intelligence is truly a gift — but a gift that often brings with it significant challenges, such as loneliness, taking on too much responsibility, and feeling overwhelmed with all the information your mind is able to take in. My hope is that deepening my empathy and understanding in this regard will help me be of better service to such folks in the future.
Can you share with our readers a bit about why you are an authority on the topic of “How Simplifying and Decluttering Your Life Can Make You Happier”?
As a psychotherapist, a big part of my job is to help people find their balance between “too much” and “not enough,” so that their lives are exciting and challenging, but still manageable. We live in an age of overabundance, where we very commonly get overwhelmed with the “too much” of life: too many physical possessions, too many activities in a day, too much information around us. I have seen over and over how dialing down on physical and informational clutter helps people feel calmer, more grounded, and more joyful.
Ok, thank you for that. Let’s now jump to the main focus of our interview. We live in a time of excess. We have access to so much. But studies show that all of our “stuff” is not making us any happier. Can you articulate for our readers a few reasons why all of our possessions are not giving us happiness?
The great Swiss psychoanalyst Erich Fromm in his book “The Art of Being” referred to two types of property: “alive” and “dead”. Alive property is essential (or at least highly important) for our life. Some examples are a home, work tools, transport, etc. This is property that serves us. On the other hand, dead property takes more from us than what it gives us. It takes up space in our homes — and our minds — without providing sustained value. I would argue that so much of what we buy and own today is actually in the category of dead property. It may be something that we bought to fit in with others, or for status, or to feel better in the moment — but in the end it doesn’t improve our life significantly and may stop giving right after that initial rush of having a “new cool thing.”
Another reason for our stuff not making us happy is that, to paraphrase Dostoyevsky, a human being gets used to everything. We get desensitized. Yet another new gadget or piece of clothing we buy may provide a jolt of excitement and novelty — but this jolt will be quite transient, and we will soon search for a new cool thing to buy. It’s a vicious cycle, if you will.
Our physical possessions aside, we also live in a world of overabundant external stimulation, needing to process more information and make more everyday choices than we ever had in the past. This raises the importance of having a more organized — perhaps more ascetic even — physical environment. Otherwise, there is no space for contemplation and actually feeling life deeply. Our nervous systems get overwhelmed, and life can become unpleasant.
On a broader societal level, how do you think this excessiveness may be harming our communities and society?
Our excessive focus on material possessions gets in the way of us connecting in a relaxed, grounded way. Our things keep us too busy: we need time to shop for new clothes or new furniture, to fix our car, or to organize our guitar collection. Who then has time to chat with other people? Also, excessive material possessions contribute to us hyper-focusing on what is different between us and other people (“He drives a more expensive car”; “She is dressed so much better than I am”), as opposed to the similarities (“We are both hard-working men”; “She is funny, I want to be her friend”).
On the socio-political level, our hyper-consumerism leads to industries that cater to our desires (which are infinite), rather than our needs (which are finite). As a result, many industries mass-produce superfluous goods that bring momentary excitement, rather than long-term happiness. So much money and productivity is lost, and in the process the environment gets more polluted than it would otherwise be.
The irony of struggling with happiness in modern times is glaring. In many places in the world today, we have more than ever before in history. Yet despite this, so many people are unhappy. Why is simplifying a solution? How would simplifying help people to access happiness?
Simply spending less time buying and taking care of things opens up space in our day to just be. Relaxing into this “being-ness” slows us down, deepens our experience of life, and brings about better access to joy.
At the same time, I would not say that simplifying is necessarily a solution for everyone. The more complex and stimulating someone’s internal world is, the more they may benefit from decluttering their environment to avoid sensory overload. On the other hand, a lot of people with simpler, more peaceful inner lives thrive on having a lot of things around. In many ways it’s about achieving the right kind of balance for yourself. You want the amount of physical possessions and external stimulation that fits you — so that you are sufficiently challenged or entertained, but also not overwhelmed.
Can you share some insights from your own experience? Where in your life have you transformed yourself from not having enough to finally experiencing enough? For example, many people feel they don’t have enough money. Yet, people define abundance differently, and often, those with the least money can feel the most abundant. Where in your health, wealth, or relationships have you transformed your life?
It was extremely helpful for me to “audit” my desires and really ask myself, what is it that I truly need in life? Some years ago I attended a self-development retreat where we had a chance to explore which of our desires were our own, and which were due to societal expectations. It was liberating for me to find out that my most fundamental desires actually have to do with quite simple needs: a beautiful place to live, healthy food, decent health, good people around me, and fulfilling work. These are clichés, but they are clichés for a reason: these things are indeed what most of us truly, deeply want. Realizing that my material desires are in reality not that extravagant eased my workaholic tendencies and lowered for me the pressure to earn, which in turn opened up more space in my life for creativity and joy.
People, places, and things shape our lives. For example, your friends generate conversations that influence you. Where you live impacts what you eat and how you spend your time. The “things” in your life, like phones, technology, or books impact your recreation. Can you tell us a little about how people, places, and things in your own life impact your experience of “experiencing enough?”
I have noticed a stark contrast between how I feel when I use the social media apps on my phone vs when I read books on my e-reader. When I scroll through social media, I often see people having the time of their lives skydiving, vacationing in the Bahamas, and so on. I notice myself feeling progressively less satisfied with my own life with each post that I see. At the end of my scrolling, even though I just supposedly “connected” with many people, I usually feel emptier, not fuller.
On the other hand, reading books gives me a very different type of experience. Especially with good fiction, reading feels both exciting and nourishing — like I am on a boat sailing down a river at my own pace, free to stop at any point and take a look around the river bank. It’s just right.
What advice would you give to younger people about “experiencing enough?”
Remember that you can “experience enough” not only by acquiring or achieving more, but also by wanting less. Our desires are largely mimetic, meaning, we imitate what other people want; we imitate their desires. In this day and age we are exposed to so many other people’s desires through the internet and social media that we end up wanting much more than ever before. Limit your exposure to social media, and the number and intensity of your desires will go down. As a result, your desires will be easier to satisfy, and experiencing enough will be much more achievable for you.
This is the main question of our interview. Based on your experience and research, can you share your “five ways we can simplify and declutter our lives to make us happier?”
- Keep in mind the three general areas for decluttering and simplifying: 1) your physical environment; 2) your daily activities; and 3) the information you consume.
- Simplify your physical environment by looking at a few of your possessions per week and asking yourself, “Is this item serving me?” If the inner response is a “No”, then sell or donate the item.
- Take some of your free time back by reducing the number of activities you engage in every day. Let yourself feel the deep emotions and aliveness that are underneath the everyday busyness.
- Be mindful of the information and entertainment that you consume. Particularly, diminish your exposure to political content which tends to bring up emotions of fear and anger. Go on an “informational fast,” if need be, so that you can relax into the deeper layers of your being.
- Remember that the process of simplifying your life is highly individual — there is no “right” way for your life to be set up. So — pay attention to how your nervous system responds to the different changes that you play with, and adjust accordingly. Decluttering your life needs to be an organic process to be sustainable.
You are a person of great influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. 🙂
Staying with the topic of our interview, here is one idea I would like to spread more in our culture: “Consume less external information, so that you can feel the wisdom that is inside.” I would, actually, benefit from heeding this advice better myself 🙂
How can our readers further follow your work online?
They can read some of my writings or inquire about my services on my website at maxcounseling.com.
Thank you so much for these insights. This was so inspiring, and so important!
About The Interviewer: For 30 years, Drew Gerber has been inspiring those who want to change the world. Drew is the CEO of Wasabi Publicity, Inc., a full-service PR agency lauded by PR Week and Good Morning America. Wasabi Publicity, Inc. is a global marketing company that supports industry leaders, change agents, unconventional thinkers, companies and organizations that strive to make a difference. Whether it’s branding, traditional PR or social media marketing, every campaign is instilled with passion, creativity and brilliance to powerfully tell their clients’ story and amplify their intentions in the world. Schedule a free consultation at WasabiPublicity.com/Choosing-Publicity.
Max Tsymbalau On How Simplifying & Decluttering Your Life Can Make You Happier was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.