An Interview With Pirie Jones Grossman
Be True (and Kind) to Yourself. When you put hard work and effort into your career, it can feel like everything hinges on driving specific outcomes, such as promotions or winning accounts. It’s good to care deeply about your career and put your best effort forward. But it’s also important to maintain perspective. Very few individual events have the power to make or break you. I like to remind women to tell themselves that no matter what happens, they’ll be able to support themselves. You need to feel that confidence to take chances and make changes across your career. If things don’t go exactly the way you hope, you’ll move past the disappointment, and something even better may come along. One of the most important lessons I learned over the course of my career was that sometimes I could’ve dialed back my intensity. I was highly motivated but recognize now that there were times I could have — and should have — taken a sick day, more personal days to do something fun, or told my client I needed more time to complete a project. Remember that you’re in charge of your life so you can enjoy it over the long-term AND cultivate a career that is rewarding and joyful.
In today’s dynamic world, the concept of leadership is continuously evolving. While traditional leadership models have often been male-dominated, there is a growing recognition of the unique strengths and perspectives that women bring to these roles. This series aims to explore how women can become more effective leaders by authentically embracing their femininity and innate strengths, rather than conforming to traditional male leadership styles. In this series, we are talking to successful women leaders, coaches, authors, and experts who can provide insights and personal stories on how embracing their inherent feminine qualities has enhanced their leadership abilities. As part of this series, we had the pleasure of interviewing Christiana Smith Shi.
Christiana Smith Shi is the former president of Nike’s consumer-direct division where she led the company’s global retail and ecommerce business. Before that she was a senior partner at McKinsey & Co. Christiana has been named one of the Most Influential Corporate Directors by Women, Inc. She currently leads Lovejoy Advisors, which is focused on digitally transforming consumer and retail businesses. Shi is a graduate of Stanford University and has an MBA from Harvard Business School, where she graduated as a Baker Scholar. She lives in Portland, Oregon. She is the co-author of the forthcoming book, Career Forward: Strategies from Women Who’ve Made It (Scribner; on-sale: February 20, 2024).
Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series. Before we dive into our discussion about authentic, feminine leadership, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you share with us the backstory about what brought you to your specific career path?
I spent my first years out of college on Wall Street, working for Merrill Lynch. I grew up a lot in those years and started to figure out what “my way” was going to look like. Merrill Lynch was a client of the management consulting firm McKinsey & Company, and while at Merrill, I’d volunteered to be a client team member on a project that McKinsey was doing. The McKinsey people parachuted in, and I was immediately enthralled. They were the smartest people I’d ever met. They worked together in a collaborative way and could solve tough business problems, all of which appealed to me. I remember thinking, “These are my people.” From then on, it became my goal to join McKinsey — but I had to work for it, including getting my MBA and learning how to handle the case study interviews that had stumped me back in college. I’ve discovered many times since then that you may not always know what path to take or when to go or stay. But there are times when you just know what’s right in your gut. That was McKinsey for me, and I stayed there 24 years! Being able to recognize how and when to make those choices is one of the areas we explore in our book.
Can you share the most interesting story that happened to you since you started your career?
I’ve been working for over 40 years, so it’s tough to pick just one story! Here’s one that stands out, though. When my son was little, I was traveling every other week and working long hours at McKinsey, and it was wearing me down. I tried to quit three times, but my mentor kept talking me out of it. Ideally, I wanted to have some kind of part-time arrangement, but even if the partners said yes, I feared it would kill my chances of advancing. Eventually, I decided to propose a switch to part time, working four days a week and keeping 80 percent of the workload for 80 percent of the pay. Much to my surprise, McKinsey agreed to my proposal, but they made it clear this was a very temporary arrangement that should only last a few months.
In reality, this “short-term” arrangement ended up lasting almost ten years! I was elected partner and senior partner, all while working on a part-time program. I showed the leaders at McKinsey that a flexible schedule does not prevent a person from continuing to advance. Since then, this arrangement has turned into a standard career-track option at McKinsey. It’s important to note, though, that I never would have been able to pioneer the part-time role if I hadn’t accrued what we call “professional equity.” I reached that point of leverage by working hard, doing well, and building internal support.
You are a successful business leader. Which three-character traits do you think were most instrumental to your success? Can you please share a story or example for each?
I’ve tried to focus on these three qualities/capabilities over the course of my career:
- Being resilient. Early on, I learned the value of resilience — developing the coping muscles that you can activate in challenging situations. If I screw up, or get into a tough spot, I try not to dwell on how unfair the situation is or what failure might cost me. I might take a moment to shake my fist, but then I’ll regroup and try something new. I developed this attitude as a middle child in a large family that was rarely financially stable. I was tested many times, but never more so than when I made the jump from 24 years in consulting to a senior operating role at Nike Inc. My first week at Nike was spent on a week-long trip to Latin America with my new colleagues. Day 4, we were in São Paulo, and I broke my foot going downstairs in a soccer stadium. I spent the next six weeks in a boot, which definitely made the logistics of the new job a lot harder, but my accident and subsequent resilience became an ice breaker and a “claim to fame” across the entire organization. That’s when I was reminded that no problem I’d encounter was too big to recover from, or even better, turn into an advantage.
- Taking “smart risks.” This is closely related to being resilient, because when you’re confident that you can recover from potential downsides, you’re more willing to take informed risks in your career. As an example, when I was up for senior partner, I got an offer to take a role at a major dot.com. I had my sights set on making senior partner, but I had no way of knowing for sure if it was going to happen, so I was torn about what to do. I took time to evaluate the dot.com opportunity, meet the investors behind the business, and understand what the role would involve. It was definitely attractive and offered a lot of compensation upside, but my gut was telling me that my options were still richer at McKinsey. I decided to turn down the job and take my chances on getting elected. I made my choice clear to McKinsey before the elections, which signaled that I wasn’t trying to force their hand, and in the end, I was elected senior partner. That experience gave me the confidence to know that if things didn’t work out at the firm, I’d land on my feet somewhere else.
- Having a performance mindset. I’m convinced that the best way to build career equity is to deliver high performance consistently. This is rooted in having a learning mindset and driving for performance and impact. It creates a virtuous cycle, where as your stock rises at work, you benefit in terms of compensation, a greater ability to shape your role, and more opportunities. This virtuous cycle played out for me at Nike when I took what looked like a lateral position after being at the company for a year, to run Nike.com. The business was a relatively small part of Nike’s portfolio and hadn’t been growing as fast as it should. With my team, I took on the challenge of delivering on an aggressive new strategy and committing to much higher revenue and profit growth. I had to learn a lot quickly, as I’d never run a digital business before, but as the business took off, it created opportunities to share our story with the executive team and the board. The positive reputation benefits, as well as the real “numbers we put on the board” contributed to me being promoted only a year later to President of the entire direct-to-consumer division.
Leadership often entails making difficult decisions or hard choices between two apparently good paths. Can you share a story with us about a hard decision or choice you had to make as a leader? I’m curious to understand how these challenges have shaped your leadership.
About a year into my time as President of Nike Consumer Direct, I had to make a really difficult choice between investing in our physical stores or shifting that capital expenditure into our digital commerce business. It’s the reality of being a public company and recognizing the resources are finite and you can’t do everything you want to do every year. The stores business employed a lot of people at the front line, and had been opening new stores for years, so shutting down that expansion, even for just a year, would have a meaningful impact on a lot of people. However, it was clear that our consumer was moving online, and we were behind in terms of the capabilities we needed to stay competitive. In the end, I made the decision to open no new doors for one full year, which meant walking away from attractive locations we had already negotiated. It took a lot of honest and transparent conversations with my leadership team to get them comfortable with the decision and align on the reasoning behind the choice, but once they were there, we went full speed ahead. This experience reminded me of the value of bringing people along with you when you make big decisions, versus sending top-down mandates to the team and wrestling with these decisions by yourself.
Ok, thank you for that. Let’s now jump to the primary focus of our interview. Can you share a personal experience where embracing your unique leadership style, which might not align with traditional expectations, led to a significant positive impact in your organization or team?
I remember a time while at McKinsey when I agreed to host a neighborhood holiday cookie decorating party at my home, which meant I needed to leave the office way early. I traveled often, so I didn’t get a lot of chances to socialize with my neighbors, and I didn’t want to miss this. When it came time to leave the office that day, of course a small crisis came up that needed to be addressed. I thought for a minute about either canceling the party, or telling my team I was leaving for a doctor’s appointment instead of a party, but I chose to be honest and share why I still needed to go. I believed it was my responsibility to set an example for direct reports that it was okay to prioritize important obligations. I also believed that these kinds of situations could give team members a chance to step up and handle issues on their own — and that’s exactly what happened. My team rallied to ensure the crisis was resolved without me. Looking back, it really helped set the tone for our local office’s culture. Associates began to feel more comfortable speaking up when they had personal commitments which they needed to handle during work hours.
In your journey as a leader, how have you balanced demonstrating resilience, often seen as a masculine trait, with showing vulnerability, which is equally powerful, but typically feminine? Can you give an example where this balance created a meaningful difference?
I’m not sure I agree that resilience is often seen as a masculine trait, because I think most working women I know are incredibly resilient — but I do agree that vulnerability can be viewed as typically feminine and not always a strength. Brené Brown’s book, Dare to Lead, makes a pretty persuasive case that vulnerability can actually be a major leadership advantage, and that’s been my experience as well. I experienced the power of being vulnerable at work first-hand when I went through cancer treatment about ten years ago. There’s almost no way to fully mask the visible side effects of chemo, even with a great wig (which I tried but couldn’t tolerate!), so it was obvious to my colleagues that I was going through something. I’m a fairly private person, so I felt very vulnerable being that exposed. My natural tendency was to try to continue with business as usual, but I learned how to take help from others when I accepted that I couldn’t always make a meeting, hit a deliverable, or work a full day. The lasting benefit for me, besides getting better at leveraging willing and capable colleagues, was the respect the organization showed me for being a survivor while continuing to lead.
As a woman in leadership, how have you navigated and challenged gender stereotypes, especially in situations where traditional male-dominated approaches are the norm? What strategies have you employed to remain authentic to your style?
I’ve spent most of my career in fields that were traditionally male-dominated, including investment banking, management consulting, and sports brands. I learned a lot from my male colleagues, and wasn’t afraid to borrow habits and traits that I thought were effective and could be part of my leadership toolkit, but I always adapted them to work for me. For instance, one “secret weapon” that has served me well is to use humor to diffuse tough situations. I learned it from a male senior partner who was a master, and since my personal orientation is very “glass half-full” and optimistic, using humor fit me and felt authentic.
What role has mentorship played in developing your authentic leadership style, and how do you communicate authentically to inspire and empower both your mentors and mentees?
I’ve benefited as a leader from mentorship in a number of ways, including getting candid feedback, actionable advice, and career support. I was very conscious of noting the leadership traits I admired in different mentors, and actively designed my own “bespoke” leadership style that leveraged those traits but was authentic to me. I’ve also tried to be strategic about where I look for mentors, and as a senior leader, who I take on as a mentee. What makes mentorship relationships work — and endure — is chemistry. There must be an intellectual or personal connection, as well as mutual respect, which encourages a bond to form. You can build on that initial connection to have honest, frank conversations that often lead to exponential improvements.
Ok super. Here is the main question of our interview. Based on your experience and research, can you please share “5 Ways Leading Authentically As A Woman Will Affect Your Leadership”? If you can, please share a story or an example for each.
- Get comfortable owning your ambition. Women are often cautious when it comes to expressing their appetite for career progression. Business Insider found that 59 percent of women they polled said that having ambition was an important trait for career success, and 50 percent of the women said they identified as ambitious. However, only about a third felt comfortable actually calling themselves ambitious. It’s probably fair to say that many women are silently ambitious. They construct their career goals but keep them under the radar. Business Insider cited one reason being the “likeability trap”: women are encouraged to be likeable to advance their careers, yet likeability is often viewed as being in conflict with female ambition. When I was a second-year consulting associate, I was dating someone who worked for the same firm. I felt uncomfortable talking to him about how well I was doing and how much I enjoyed consulting. When he asked me once if I wanted to try and make partner at the firm, I denied it, but in reality I was very interested. I only began to openly express my career goals later as I realized that stating my aspirations clearly to my bosses — and myself! — made it easier to pursue those goals with greater focus. Looking back, I wish I had the confidence earlier to say what I wanted to achieve and own my ambition openly.
- Practice boldness until it’s a comfortable tool. Being bold is about your own self-empowerment. It’s about perspective. Boldness is a tool that enables you to speak up without anxiety about what you’re worth, what you want, and the consideration you’ve earned. Sometimes women get confused about what it means to be bold in a professional setting. They think it’s about charging full speed ahead and taking actions that cause others to sit up and take notice — and that may be viewed as a more “masculine” style. However, the kind of boldness I’m talking about is an inner quality that gives women the confidence that tells them they’re on the right course — that they’ve got it handled. There are few things as professionally rewarding as knowing yourself and being able to show what you’ve got. I learned this at business school, where half my grade in each class was based on class participation. I had to get comfortable speaking up, jumping into fast-moving discussions, and sharing bold perspectives — otherwise, I wasn’t going to pass. My mantra was “I’m here in this room for a reason, and I need to make sure I show up.” It’s served me well ever since.
- Remember that being underestimated has hidden advantages. Women operate in a world that doesn’t always expect much from them — but if that happens, we believe they often can use those lower expectations to their advantage. Grace Puma and I call this dynamic the “underdog’s superpower” in our book, describing how being perceived as an underdog can actually be a powerful tool to create opportunities to “break out” in surprising ways. In particular, we’ve found that being underestimated can create the opportunity to develop four strengths that are so valuable they become superpowers. These include Support — creating a “wow factor” when you succeed that attracts supporters across your organization; Confidence — succeeding against the odds builds your inner confidence; Motivation — it can be very motivating to come from behind and prove yourself; and most importantly, Resilience — developing your ability to cope with difficult situations or adverse circumstances.
- Craft your own unique leadership identity. There’s a catch-22 about developing as an effective leader: leadership is best learned “on the job” by experiencing a wide range of leaders as you progress in your career, but many women don’t have female leaders ahead of them whom they can look to as role models. This disparity doesn’t have to hold you back, though, as long as you’re intentional. All around us are leaders who will model effective (and sometimes ineffective!) behaviors. You can build your own unique vision of leadership and take advantage of mentors to help you develop the leadership style you’re striving for. Over my career, I took mental notes when I worked with people I admired, and also sought feedback on my leadership from my teams regularly through upward feedback. I like to remember the acronym NAP, which is Notice, Adapt, Practice, when trying on new leadership behaviors. I once worked for a partner who was a genius at diffusing tensions with directness. I paid attention to what he said, how he said it, and in what situations. Then I practiced it in my own way until it came naturally. My new skill came in handy when I forgot a meeting with an important client. When he called to rightfully chew me out, I picked up the phone and immediately said “Let me have it,” which disarmed him and gave me a chance to apologize without escalating tensions.
- Be True (and Kind) to Yourself. When you put hard work and effort into your career, it can feel like everything hinges on driving specific outcomes, such as promotions or winning accounts. It’s good to care deeply about your career and put your best effort forward. But it’s also important to maintain perspective. Very few individual events have the power to make or break you. I like to remind women to tell themselves that no matter what happens, they’ll be able to support themselves. You need to feel that confidence to take chances and make changes across your career. If things don’t go exactly the way you hope, you’ll move past the disappointment, and something even better may come along. One of the most important lessons I learned over the course of my career was that sometimes I could’ve dialed back my intensity. I was highly motivated but recognize now that there were times I could have — and should have — taken a sick day, more personal days to do something fun, or told my client I needed more time to complete a project. Remember that you’re in charge of your life so you can enjoy it over the long-term AND cultivate a career that is rewarding and joyful.
Are there potential pitfalls or challenges associated with being an empathetic leader? How can these be addressed?
I suppose there are potential pitfalls associated with a lot of leadership characteristics, including thought leadership, decisiveness, and strength. I think empathy is one characteristic that has less potential downside, but if I had to flag one, it would be that an empathetic leader could be portrayed as weak or too emotional. We can all think of famous women leaders who have been characterized this way at some point in their careers. The best way to address that challenge is to remember that empathy is not the polar opposite of toughness. As long as a leader is still willing and able to make difficult decisions when required — whether about people, resources, or strategy — their empathetic abilities will be an advantage.
You are a person of great influence. If you could start a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. 🙂
I’m passionate about securing the futures of women and children and I believe safe, affordable housing is critical to that goal. I’m involved with Habitat for Humanity for that reason, and would love to see leaders sponsor legislation that enables the development of lower-cost housing in our communities and entrepreneurs develop innovations that can reduce home building costs and speed up construction. As an example, I recently had a chance to see a technology developed in Africa for injection-molded foam “cinder blocks” that cut build time and cost in half for a typical small family home. The challenge is to find these innovations and fund them so they can scale and impact our world!
How can our readers further follow you online?
I can be found on LinkedIn (http://linkedin.com/in/csshi), at my professional website (www.lovejoyadvisors.com) and at www.careerforwardbook.com, the website for a book on career success for women which my co-author, Grace Puma, and I recently released.
Thank you for the time you spent sharing these fantastic insights. We wish you only continued success in your great work!
About The Interviewer: Pirie is a TedX speaker, author and a Life Empowerment Coach. She is a co-host of Own your Throne podcast, inspiring women in the 2nd chapter of their lives. With over 20 years in front of the camera, Pirie Grossman understands the power of storytelling. After success in commercials and acting. She spent 10 years reporting for E! Entertainment Television, Entertainment Tonight, also hosted ABC’s “Every Woman”. Her work off-camera capitalizes on her strength, producing, bringing people together for unique experiences. She produced a Children’s Day of Compassion during the Dalai Lama’s visit here in 2005. 10,000 children attended, sharing ideas about compassion with His Holiness. From 2006–2009, Pirie Co-chaired the Special Olympics World Winter Games, in Idaho, welcoming 3,000 athletes from over 150 countries. She founded Destiny Productions to create Wellness Festivals and is an Advisory Board member of the Sun Valley Wellness Board.In February 2017, Pirie produced, “Love is Louder”, a Brain Health Summit, bringing in Kevin Hines, noted suicide survivor to Sun Valley who spoke to school kids about suicide. Sun Valley is in the top 5% highest suicide rate per capita in the Northwest, prompting a community initiative with St. Luke’s and other stake holders, to begin healing. She lives in Sun Valley with her two children, serves on the Board of Community School. She has her Master’s degree in Spiritual Psychology from the University of Santa Monica and is an Executive Life Empowerment Coach, where she helps people meet their dreams and goals! The difference between a dream and a goal is that a goal is a dream with a date on it!
Leading with Heart: Nike’s Christiana Smith Shi On The Power of Authentic Women’s Leadership was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.