An Interview With Stephanie Greer
Sometimes people with schizophrenia, they cannot be helpful to other people because of their condition. This is not bad of the person. This is not really a bad sign about the person, it’s because of the schizophrenia that the person is not helping. If the person has a chance, the person will be supportive, just as I was in my life to my nephew.
Living with schizophrenia presents a unique set of challenges. This condition can profoundly impact an individual’s personal, social, and professional life. But it’s crucial to note that countless individuals with schizophrenia lead productive and successful lives, transforming their experiences into powerful narratives of strength and resilience. We would like to share and shed light on the realities, the strategies, and the triumphs of navigating life with this disorder. For this series, we are talking to individuals who are diagnosed with schizophrenia, who can share their personal journeys, strategies, coping mechanisms, and expert advice to help others in similar situations. As a part of this interview series, I had the pleasure of interviewing João Leite Ribeiro.
João Leite Ribeiro lives in Brazil and was diagnosed with schizophrenia when he was 19. His journey to recovery has been aided by the teachings of philosophy and ancient wisdom. He is now a speaker, lecturer, playwright and author of the book Memórias de um Estoico (The memoirs of a Stoic). He also contributes to the healing of others with schizophrenia through his work as a peer support group facilitator.
Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series! We really appreciate the courage it takes to publicly share your story. Before we start, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you tell us a bit about your background and your childhood backstory?
Okay, so in my childhood, I had a very cold and distant mother. She did not develop a real connection or a bond to me. My mother was an absent person all her life, actually, especially in my childhood.
On the other hand, I had a very close father and I had some relatives who were close to me also. I had a cousin who was close to me. I had an aunt that was close to me and others.
But my childhood has this feature of a very cold and distant mother, and a very problematic one, who would not develop a bond to her children, or even to anybody. And later on in my life, this became a problem because she is cold, but at the same time she is dominant.
Regarding my background, I would say, I had a close relationship to my father, he incentivized me to study, to read, to acquire culture, to listen to classical music and many things that were helpful to bring me as a spiritual person. I consider myself a spiritual person nowadays, and I think part of this was because I had this incentivizing father who would incentivize me to study, to listen to more subtle music, to have an artistic taste, and so on. My father was very helpful in these things towards me all my life, especially in my childhood.
Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share how that was relevant to you in your life?
Yeah, I would stay with that is from the Bible, Jesus, when he says, “Not of bread alone lives man.” Because That makes a lot of sense to me that we’ve got more in this world than just the material things, there are the spiritual things also, not only the material ones.
And I think the spiritual world is important, perhaps especially to people with schizophrenia. I would add that here in Brazil, some Afro Brazilian religions, sometimes they consider the people with schizophrenia spiritually gifted. And sometimes the people in Schizophrenia, they become even important, they play even important roles in these African Brazilian religions.
Let’s now shift to the main part of our discussion. Can you share what your journey with schizophrenia has been like?
Yes. The journey of schizophrenia is a sad one because for me, the diagnosis came when I was 19 years old. And it was like a silencing document.
What do I say by that? Once there was this paper in which it was written there that I had schizophrenia, never more would I be right in any discussion at all, especially with my mother, because she would say, you are a delusional person, what the hell are you saying? I’m the right one here.
My voice was shuttered. I could not state my opinions anymore because I was the delusional one. So, I lost my word.
It was also a journey of loneliness. It’s difficult because, for example, when we are interned in a hospital, some people might say, “you are amongst the likes of you now”, but that’s not true because when I go to the hospital, I feel completely different to all the people who are there.
So it’s very difficult. We don’t have a sense of belonging, we’re outside.
But I should say that also from some days to now, I had some interesting things in my life that happened that made me a happier person. I’ve had some opportunities. I published a book, and I have a theater play also that I wrote, and I myself perform it on the stage.
So this was a great victory for me. To perform that in a theater and to receive the applause of the audience was a great moment for me. From some time to now, I had some good experiences regarding some lectures I gave, the book I published.
Was there a turning point for you when things started to change for the better? Can you please share a story?
Yeah, I would say that some events were important to my recovery. Even some things that happened previous to my recovery. For example, my taste for philosophy that I had since adolescence, this was helpful. This was more helpful than many therapies and drugs that I had to take. So, I read some books that really made sense to me.
I went through psychoanalysis many times, and for a variety of reasons, I did not like the process very much, but I read some philosopher who would resonate much more to me, would make much more sense to me, and were indeed helpful to me in my life. They would write on non-violence, about some ideas that really resonated well to me and that helped me a lot. So these philosophers, they were very useful to me and more useful than any medicine or any therapy that I went through. That ability to read those books of philosophy.
I would say I was also lucky that I have a very understanding and friendly neighbor. He was he was a Dutchman. He was living in Brazil and was my neighbor and we have many conversations together and he was very helpful to me because he was the first person in my life to whom I could talk in sincerity. I didn’t need to disguise. Because for me, as quite often happens to people with schizophrenia, I had to conceal sometimes that I was bad.
Because if you tell the doctor or whoever that you were bad, it is very likely they will increase the medicine. And that will bring you some side effects that are undesirable. So I had this policy, I would say, of not being very open about myself to whoever, as I was afraid someone would interpret that as a worsening of my condition and therefore that I needed more medicine.
But I was very fortunate to have this neighbor of mine who was a very understanding, very friendly person to whom I had, good conversations; sincere conversations.
Who are some of the important people in your life who have been on this journey with you? How have they either helped you or made things harder?
Well, in addition to my neighbor, I’d like to mention my small nephew. He’s a young child, he’ll be seven now. When I started talking to him, he was just four years old. When he was younger he was very shy, but I grew close to him and I helped him.
And this was something fantastic to me because perhaps for the first time in my life I had someone to help. I had someone to whom I could extend a hand. So I stood my hand to my nephew, I tried to help him. He seemed happy to have my help. So this was a very good thing in my life, this opportunity to be helpful to someone.
I’d also add another person who is my present day psychologist. Who’s a very good person also.
How has your experience been getting treatment? What do you wish mental health professionals understood better about navigating schizophrenia?
They have this idea. That the dopamine is the great villain of the story. If you get to a psychiatrist’s office and you tell him you hear voices, almost always he will say this: “you need some medicine to inhibit the dopamine in your brain because you have too much dopamine and that’s the reason you’re hearing voices.”
Okay. Now, I won’t answer in the matter of, if it is true that the voices exist or if it is a creation of the patient. What happens is that the patient feels like it comes from outside. And it’s very unpleasant to hear that it’s something of the chemistry inside your brain. Many people will think this is a mystical thing, who think this is a contact to spirits or whatever. It’s unpleasant to hear that “it’s just a dopamine in your brain and I prescribe the dopamine that will solve the problem.”
So I would tell doctors this, pay attention to what the person is saying. Do not dismiss the explanation of the person. You may prescribe the medicine anyhow, but do not dismiss the voice of the person.
Because you also don’t know if it is really the dopamine of it comes from inside. At the end of the day, nobody really knows about this. So I would tell this to the psychiatrist. Respect the point of view of the person and have not imposed to the person coercively that this is a problem of dopamine and that’s, that there’s nothing spiritual happening.
This might be unpleasant to the person. Another thing that I would comment with psychiatrists would be the focus on delusions because delusions are usually seen as the major problem. So you take the anti-dopaminic medication to inhibit your delusions. The problem is your delusions. This is the core problem.
Many times, I don’t think it’s quite this way because in my view, many people have weird beliefs. There are weird beliefs everywhere. Delusions are everywhere. People say they have seen extraterrestrials. People say they have been kidnapped to flying saucers. People say the Soviet Union, they have a new weapon, a secret weapon there that will destroy the world in five minutes.
People say a lot of things. The problem is when the person is difficult to deal with, when it’s difficult to dialogue with the person. I think this is the key issue, not the delusions. The person might have the delusions he wants to have but if the person can talk, if the person can negotiate things, if the person is open to hear the opinions of other people, if the person is nonviolent, above all, I think this is the most important thing, not the delusion itself, but that the person has a good will, that the person is able to hear and to coexist with other people.
You may have the worst of delusions, but if you can coexist with other people, what’s the problem? The treatment should recognize that because the weird thoughts are just everywhere, and some of the weird thoughts might even be true.
But the center, the core of the problem is people who are difficult to deal with, the people that do not accept dialogue. This is the core of the problem, I think.
What are a few of the biggest misconceptions and myths out there about schizophrenia that you would like to dispel?
I think one misconception of some psychiatrists, I don’t know if all of them, but some psychiatrists, they will put like this, yes, I know that the medicines are difficult to withstand. They have many side effects and so forth. I know that. But if you are a person with schizophrenia, you are doomed to have a half life. You have to take these medicines, you have to undergo these treatments, because schizophrenia imposes in you a half life. You never have a really satisfactory life. Your life will be experienced only in a half manner. You won’t have a satisfaction. You never feel really content in your life.
And this is obfuscation. I don’t like this point of view. Because when I was on stage, for example, I was living a full life and many other circumstances of my life. I was living a full life and I think this is possible to people with schizophrenia.
We have a full life. We can be full citizens. We can express our opinions. We can study. We can speak.
There is a chunk of Shakespeare, which is the Jew speaking, more or less like this. I am a Jew, but I can laugh. I am a Jew, but I bleed. I am a Jew, but so forth. I say the same thing about schizophrenia.
I am a person with schizophrenia, but I can think. Anybody can talk, so it is not necessary to have a half life. I think you can live a full life even being schizophrenic. This is an idea I’d like to pass on.
What are 5 things you learned from your journey that you think other people navigating life with schizophrenia or their family would benefit from knowing?
1. We live in a very competitive society. For the bad, really for the bad. Most of the United States and Brazil, they are the same in this aspect. It’s a very competitive society. Because sometimes a person with schizophrenia might think, as I thought myself many times what do I do to deserve the food I eat?
I do not work. I do not do anything. Why do I deserve to eat? That’s a question we might have in mind when we live in a competitive society. But in my opinion, everybody’s entitled to eat. Everybody’s entitled to be a citizen. Even if you are unable to work, even if you are unable to do any interesting or artistic or whatever, if you’re a person, you’re entitled to have food.
If you’re a person, you’re entitled to give your opinion. This competition that goes, that permeates our societies. I think this is really for the bad. And it’s, and I do think this is a moment of freedom when you notice you don’t need to compete at all. This is a moment of freedom. I don’t need to be better than anyone.
2. Sometimes people with schizophrenia, they cannot be helpful to other people because of their condition. This is not bad of the person. This is not really a bad sign about the person, it’s because of the schizophrenia that the person is not helping. If the person has a chance, the person will be supportive, just as I was in my life to my nephew.
This is important, the day you feel you can be supportive, the day you feel you have something to contribute, is very important in our lives.
3. When someone has a different opinion, it’s not because this person is antagonistic to us. I’d like to tell you briefly something about Indian philosophy. There were three blind men. The three blind men approached an elephant, and each of them touched the elephant with a certain part of the elephant. Each of the three blind men gave a different description of the elephant. So the one who touched the belly of the elephant would describe it somehow. The one that touches the detail of the elephant describes different, right? So why does it matter for? Because we’re all blind people touching different parts of the elephant.
See, all of us humans, we’re blind people touching different parts of the elephant.
4. When we think about the facilities where we put people with schizophrenia who are too problematic to stay at home: these places must be places where the person feels safe. These facilities where the people with schizophrenia are interned, they should provide him a sense of safety. Because when the nurse approaches you, you should not feel that as a threat, not as a threat, but as solidarity, as someone who’s come to help you, not someone who comes to damage you.
This is fundamental. In these institutions, we should feel safe. Nobody’s there to harm you. Everybody there respects you. You’re not an inferior person. You are a full citizen. Everybody respects you there. And you won’t be damaged in these facilities. I think we should have this in mind when we think about the facilities where people with schizophrenia are interned.
I don’t have a fifth learning at the moment. These four are the main ones for me.
How has living with schizophrenia affected your relationships, both romantic and platonic? Any advice for others who are navigating relationships while managing the condition?
I never had a partner in my whole life. This has affected my life. I think that if you find a nice person who’s not judgmental, if a person likes you, a person who’s understanding, that’s okay. But if you’re going to make a family, if you wish to have children, you should ponder carefully, because it’s a great responsibility.
And If you don’t really feel confident to have the children, if you don’t feel confident that you can nurture the children, I think you should think twice before having. I’m not so optimistic about schizophrenia regarding having children because it’s a big responsibility to take that.
Are there any books, podcasts, or other resources that have helped you understand or manage your condition better?
Can I say my own book?
Yes, absolutely!
It’s not yet translated to English, it’s in Portuguese, but in English it will be called “The Memoirs of a Stoic”.
I shared with you earlier, I had some philosophical readings that I found helpful. It’s a very personal thing. But if you ask me to share readings that I found helpful, I could share perhaps two authors with you: one Indian author whose name is Shankara, and a Chinese thinker I like so much, who is called Zu Xi.
We are very blessed that some very prominent names in Business, VC funding, Sports, and Entertainment read this column. Is there a person in the world, or in the US with whom you would love to have a private breakfast or lunch, and why? He or she might just see this if we tag them. 🙂
I find a little bit funny, this question, but yeah I have four. 1) Actress Nastassja Kinski. 2)Thinker and author, Noam Chomsky. 3) Politician, Cornel West. 4) Indian thinker, Sadhguru. They seem to be supportive. They seem to be smart. They seem to have their hearts in the right place.
How can our readers further follow your work online?
I am open to talk about schizophrenia with whoever wants to talk about it. I have a YouTube channel at https://www.youtube.com/@joaoleiteribeiro2283.
Thank you for your time and thoughtful answers. I know many people will gain so much from hearing this.
About The Interviewer: Stephanie Greer, PhD is the Co-founder and CEO of Akin Mental Health — a company dedicated to guiding families on their journey supporting a loved one with mental health challenges like bipolar disorder, schizophrenia and severe depression. Stephanie is passionate about this topic from her own personal experience growing up with a mother who struggled with bipolar 1 disorder and found a path forward to overcome the obstacles and live well. Stephanie’s professional experience includes a doctorate in neuroscience as well as design research roles at Hopelab and Apple. Stephanie brings this personal passion together with her world-class science and technology background to support families across the US in their personal journeys supporting loved ones with mental illness. To learn more about Akin Mental Health and join our community, visit us at akinmh.com.
João Leite Ribeiro On The Benefits Of Using A Family Approach For Treating Schizophrenia was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.