Derek Selinger of Wonder Entertainment and Productions: 5 Things You Should Do To Become a Thought Leader In Your Industry
An Interview With Dina Aletras
Credible — We live in an era where so many things can be faked. People are rightly skeptical. We have influencers flexing with rented Lamborghinis. AI deep fakes. Videos being staged on airplanes to farm rage.
Trust has been challenged in every aspect of life. So, we want to know if we can trust this person asking us to consider things differently.
This is where credibility is so important. And the best credibility is of the human variety. You can fake bank accounts and stage content, but every data point you can add to demonstrate that you are who you say you are is important.
As part of our series about how to become known as a thought leader in your industry, I had the pleasure of interviewing Derek Selinger.
Derek Selinger is a human experience and connection expert. He is an award-winning master magician, award winning film maker and has run a boutique production company. He has recently created an experience for executive teams to grow interpersonal relationships called “Box of Wonders” and gave a TEDx talk last October on the power of dreaming big.
Thank you for taking the time to speak with us! Our readers are eager to learn more about you. Could you provide some background information about yourself?
Glad to be here and happy to! I have been involved in several different industries. I started in academia and worked in student development. My graduate studies were in part in the field of involvement theory for students. It was while in that career that I began to take performance magic seriously. Soon after, a Las Vegas legend began to mentor me, and under his guidance I won several awards including “The People’s Choice Award” at the world championships. I performed around the world on the finest stages and on television shows like Penn and Teller’s Fool Us. Alongside this pursuit, I created a boutique production company that served small brands and other creators. This allowed me to write some scripts and produce some short films which have received acclaim. I also have spoken at conferences and corporate events and have been a part of producing immersive experiences for various corporate events. I recently delivered a TEDx talk about how to realize your dreams. All that work and interest has recently been distilled into my master work — an exclusive experience for 12 people at a time, where I take them on a journey of magic and discovery with the goal to deepen the relationships around the table. It’s called “Box of Wonders” and it’s the best thing I have ever created, and participants are really affirming that it is a significant work.
What establishes you as an authority on thought leadership? Could you briefly share your expertise with our readers?
I think there are two ways that I have developed my authority on thought leadership. The first is that I have spent years thinking about influence and leadership. This started in my first career working with student leaders. The art of magic and mentalism is all about influencing, well, thoughts. So, on a theoretical level I have really dug into what it takes.
The second reason is bound up in what I think thought leadership is. I mean, is there a difference between an industry leader and a thought leader, for example. I think there is. Thought leaders are those that use their experience and skill to move people, industries and cultures to new perspectives and horizons. The idea of innovation and creativity is very much tied into this process. The various thought leaders that really move the bar for us, and that we listen to, can show us a different way of thinking about a problem. Or maybe an approach that which we had not considered.
For example, Wim Hof, whether you like him or not, really led a revolution on thinking about hormesis and the use of breath. He suggested that through cold water immersion, we could address a great many physiological and physical problems. His ideas led further thought and growth in the area of health and wellness.
One of the main keys to this type of leadership is that it spans more than one discipline. It speaks to a problem from outside of the room.
This is precisely where my authority comes from. I have been able to speak to problems from liminal spaces.
What do I mean by that? Well, I mentioned my new work “Box of Wonders”. This experience is designed to be a thought exercise and a thought leading catalyst. At its core, it’s a 90-minute performance of high-level sleight of hand and magic. Like the very best that I have curated over my career. But you can go to Vegas and have a magic show. This is a whole experience, starting with a meal and light discussion. The performance explores the depth of interpersonal relationships through the power of our collective and individual memory. The night ends with discussion and sharing in a deeply authentic way. Like in a manner that most people in our culture have not experienced. And the fact that I am also doing it for executive teams is really special. I help these groups of individuals who want to perform at a high level change the way they see the past present and future.
This experience can only be created by having a wide base of knowledge. I am a master magician but that isn’t enough. I also use storytelling, theatrical elements, psychology, stage craft, discussion leadership, etc. to be potent in this capacity. If I am going to get folks to think differently about things and lead their thoughts, I must be coming from a place that they are not used to.
And this isn’t a new concept. Why do corporations get a super bowl winning coach, or an artist, or an endurance runner to share their experiences with their teams? The same reason. We know that the wisdom we need to excel exists, and other pursuits can help us glean what we need to really move forward in life and business.
Can you recall a funny mistake you made when you were first starting out? What lesson did you learn from it?
Oh ya! So many! But the one I’ll share with you today happened when I was preparing for the world championships of magic. At these competitions, magicians perform a 6–8 minute act. It is highly choreographed and very technical. To prepare, I got an engagement at the Space and Science Center in my city. With it I would be able to perform my act three times a day, followed by a short talk on optical illusions. I did this for four months, three times a day to prepare.
Well, one day I was getting ready, and I saw that there were only two people in the theater. A woman and her little son. I didn’t want to do it. I mean there were only two people! But it was show-time so I had to, right?
The opening section of my act was dark and mysterious. I made knives and swords appear out of nowhere. As I performed, I must not have been concentrating because I nicked my arm with a blade. I have never done this before or since! But I cut myself right there on stage. And then in the act I transform to a gentleman in a white tux after the dark character through a magical costume change.
So here I was, in a white tux, bleeding. The young boy didn’t exactly respond favorably. But I got through the performance by breaking the fourth wall (talking to the kid as I performed) and got a stich and my suit dry cleaned.
It was a huge lesson.
Never mail it in. Always show up.
Since that day I always perform like it’s a full theater. I am always focused to bring my best. Not only to create the best product I can, but also, so I don’t injure or embarrass myself!
What are the most significant disruptions you foresee in your industry over the next five years, and how can businesses adapt to these changes?
Again, I span several industries and speak into several, but the disruption is the same. AI and technological change.
Magic as an artform has dealt with massive technological change throughout its existence. Television, for example, really changed the art. So, magicians have been faced with these disruptions for hundreds of years.
Now with AI, where the impossible can be made possible by an algorithm, how are any of us relevant anymore?
Adapting to these changes are multifaceted but I believe the core response must be to embrace our humanity. Our individual creativity. And our relationships.
Human connection is the great differentiating advantage as we head into this new world. As impressive as AI is, it is not human. It cannot connect on a deep level like we can to each other. There is a human advantage. This will not only allow us to adapt but thrive through the change.
Can you explain the benefits of becoming a thought leader? Why is it valuable to invest time and resources into this?
Being a thought leader isn’t for everyone. It is often a lonely place because you are suggesting that people and things change. And we generally don’t want to change. Humans seek homeostasis.
But there are those of us that have a perspective that we are compelled to share. It’s like when you know that the view at the top of the mountain is so amazing. You tell people they need to go see it.
There are benefits to being a thought leader of course. When your ideas are embraced it is a path to personal recognition and gain. You get opportunities that are not afforded to others. I am talking with you for example! And thank you for this, it is very validating and encouraging.
But at the heart of it, I think the best thought leaders are the ones that are compelled to lead. Because they see something good and true, and they must share it. It’s part of what makes them human.
Can you share an example of a significant challenge you faced in your career and how you leveraged innovative thinking to overcome it?
Again, so many. But the recent pandemic was a massive challenge. It cost my company hundreds of thousands of dollars and changed the way we approached entertainment and communication.
There was a point that I really considered throwing in the towel on all the innovative ideas I have been pursuing. The world it seemed had become harder. More disconnected. More polarized. Jaded, if you will. It felt like a poor environment to create art and share ideas. All the things I had been focusing on were taking a back seat in the world in favor of utility.
But this actually created the path for what I had done next. I saw a need. That we are disconnected. That the heart of our humanness has been fractured by what we endured. That technology is causing us to question what it means to be together. And I have a unique perspective and talent to address this problem.
So instead of running from the disruption, I leaned into it. I began to think, “how can I help.” My business has changed. My focus has changed. But it is for the better because what I can do now is really making a difference.
And at the end of the day, thought leaders want to make a difference. That is how we are wired.
Now that we have covered that, we’d love to hear your advice on becoming a thought leader. Can you share five strategies that someone should follow to gain recognition as a thought leader in their industry? Please include examples or stories from your own experience for each strategy.
Certainly. I believe that a thought leader must be the following:
1. Credible
We live in an era where so many things can be faked. People are rightly skeptical. We have influencers flexing with rented Lamborghinis. AI deep fakes. Videos being staged on airplanes to farm rage.
Trust has been challenged in every aspect of life. So, we want to know if we can trust this person asking us to consider things differently.
This is where credibility is so important. And the best credibility is of the human variety. You can fake bank accounts and stage content, but every data point you can add to demonstrate that you are who you say you are is important.
Unfortunately, even testimonials can’t cover over this gap on their own. We need a wide range of cohesive proofs for our own credibility.
And the more time that these data points cover, the better. We listen to Seth Godin for example, because he has been saying the same things over decades. We see the proofs of his credibility demonstrated over and over again. Indeed, I don’t think there is anything that builds credibility better than doing your work consistently over time and leveraging the myriad of data points that consistent work demonstrates.
2. Engaging
We are in the era of short form video. Our attention spans are constantly being lured to the next bauble. The next video. The next idea.
The thought leaders that stand out are the ones that can engage their target market. In the case of Gary Vaynerchuk, his engaging energetic personality commands attention. But others like the aforementioned Seth Godin or Rick Rubin are able to command attention because they are well spoken and calm. Almost like a wise man that you draw close to. So, the energy isn’t really the commonality it is the ability to communicate clearly and authentically.
I think that learning how to be engaging is the chief skill a thought leader should develop if they have the credibility to share ideas that matter.
3. Novel
By this, I believe that thought leaders need to be sharing something new. I talked about Wim Hof earlier. When he began to talk about cold water therapy and breath work, it was like we had never heard of it before. This doesn’t mean that his ideas were entirely new, but the way that he shared them was. He climbed mountains in his underwear. Injected himself with a virus to fight it with breath work. It was novel.
So, either we need to share an idea that the world hasn’t heard or share it in a way they the world hasn’t experienced.
I tried to do this with my TEDx talk. I contrasted the absurdity of basing your dreams and goals on lottery tickets with a methodology for chasing your dreams. The system I shared was very simple, but the examples and demonstration of mentalism in the talk allowed the idea to take root.
4. Mysterious
There is this old saying that “familiarity breeds contempt.” It means once something becomes too familiar to us, we began to see the flaws and holes. This applies to people as well as ideas.
The solution to this saying is not putting up walls or acting superior. Instead, we need to develop our own individual mystery.
This is a very simple idea. It means that thought leaders need to have parts of their story and work that are not easily grasped by the current audience. This allows the leader to command respect because there is more to them than just this.
An example from my life was when I was coaching basketball. I coached college ball at a small Canadian university for several years. My players knew and respected me for how I led them on the court, but I will never forget an experience in a dressing room. Actually, it was the room next to the gym and we were waiting to take the court. There was a piano there, so I sat down as we were waiting and played a bit. The team fell silent. When I finished the song, they were in a type of awe. “I didn’t know you played music coach!” they said.
This simple action that demonstrated that there is more to me than just basketball created a different type of respect for what I was doing with them. It wasn’t that I was the best musician, it was that there was something about me that they didn’t know.
To cultivate this, the first step is to make sure you are a person of substance. That there are facets of you that are beyond the light at any one time. And then use the skills of engagement to reveal them to your audience at key moments as to subtly say, “I am more than this. You can’t know all of me at once.”
The credibility on a human level that this creates is worth its weight in gold.
5. Substantive
If your credibility looks in the mirror, this is what it will see.
When information become ubiquitous it won’t really change things for people or organizations. At least not without some type of perspective that makes it relevant and substantive.
Using the cold therapy example from earlier, on Twitter or X, there was a few months that any would-be thought leader or influencer was telling their followers that to succeed they needed to take cold showers. Other pieces of advice like “journal” and “workout” and “read books” were part of the regular rotation, but cold showers are the one we will focus on. Wim Hof really changed perspectives with his ideas on cold therapy and breath work, but now it is part of culture. It is well known and recommended by every would-be influencer in the personal development and business space. It is no longer substantive.
To have ideas that are substantive you need to have lived experience and perspective that will capitalize on the previous point and really provide something solid for people to employ. The easiest way to identify this material, in my opinion, is to go back to your credibility.
Ask, what has made you stand out in your work? What have you done and experienced that most others haven’t? If you identify this, you will be well on your way to providing really impactful ideas that can help others.
How do you foster a culture of innovation within your organization, and what practices have you found most effective in encouraging creative thinking among your team?
I’ve actually developed a whole process for this, and I can’t share it fully due to time. But a great starting point is to dream. Again, this is what my TEDx talk was about.
We often don’t innovate because we begin with analytical questions versus creative ones. We want to answer the “why” and “how” and “when” before we have really allowed our minds to explore the possibilities. I suggest the first question we need to ask is “What if?” Approaching the process of dreaming and wonder from a sense of joy and play is really helpful.
I believe we cut off ideas with conventional wisdom before they are allowed to blossom. Analysis has a very important role in creative innovation, but the first step is just letting ourselves dream. What could be?
Who do you think is an outstanding example of a thought leader? What specific qualities impress you about this person?
I’m a big fan of Seth Godin who I mentioned earlier. In part because when I found him, he was saying what I was trying to communicate to others. So, I felt a validation from him.
But after consuming much of his material I am impressed how he checks the boxes I mentioned earlier.
How do you stay informed about the latest trends and developments in your field, and how do you incorporate this knowledge into your strategic planning?
My magic mentor Jeff McBride, who is a Las Vegas Legend, has this saying. “We are no longer in the information age. All information is readily available. We are in the age of wisdom. Where the most valued among us are the people that can point us to the information that is relevant, and true.”
I love that. And I think it’s the answer to your question.
We will naturally hear about the changes to our industries if we pay even the smallest amount of attention. But if we want to incorporate the knowledge being fed to us with a fire hose, we need others. We need community. And we need advisors and mentors and coaches.
I have kept some very high-level individuals like Jeff in my circle because I am very aware that I am better with their voices in my life.
If the first job of a thought leader is to learn how to communicate effectively, the close second is to keep good and true voices close so that you can adapt and innovate as you have suggested.
Some people feel that the term “thought leader” is overused and has lost its impact. What are your thoughts on this?
Ya I think I have touched on this a bit.
The term really doesn’t have a common definition. Like if I said I am a Navy Fighter Pilot you would know exactly what I mean. But thought leader is rather vague.
This is why I defined it earlier. I believe a thought leader are those that use their experience and skill to move peoples, industries and cultures to new perspectives and horizons. These people are usually cross disciplinary thinkers able to communicate ideas and perspectives in an actionable and compelling manner.
I do believe these people usually find themselves in the role of leader as a result of their work. That is, becoming a thought leader is the natural outworking of their knowledge in the communities that they participate in.
The title may have lost its punch just like the word “influencer”. So, the best way to be a thought leader is to turn the title into a verb. Lead the thoughts of others and you won’t need to identify yourself as one per se. People will just follow your wisdom.
How do you balance short-term business goals with long-term strategic vision, especially in a rapidly changing market?
You need to have a system. I believe in dream building. Let’s use construction as a metaphor.
So, look at your grand vision or dream as what you imagine the completed house to look like.
Before you have the completed house with furniture and all the details you must build the foundation. So, the large dream is broken down into smaller dreams, and those dreams are broken down to actionable tasks and goals.
Therefore, you keep the grand vision in mind but work on what you can change today. If something goes wrong in the process you can adjust and solve a problem and still keep the larger vision protected. And this also allows you to take in new information in the process.
Can you share your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? How has it been relevant in your life?
George Bernard Shaw said “Life is no brief candle to me. It is a sort of splendid torch which I have got a hold of for the moment, and I want to make it burn as brightly as possible before handing it on to future generations.”
I closed my TEDx talk with this quote. I almost died a few times in my life. These experiences have really made me appreciate this gift of life I have been given.
Many influential figures in business and entertainment follow this column. Is there someone you’d love to have lunch or breakfast with? They might notice if we tag them.
I mentioned Seth Godin. I’m a big fan of him and his work.
Another interesting person that I have been ingesting is George Mumford. He has been the performance coach for greats like Kobe and Jordan. He recently started work with my favorite hockey team and I am intrigued with how he takes a wide range of knowledge and makes it wisdom for those he helps.
How can our readers further follow your work online?
You can learn more about my new project “Box of Wonders” on my website at www.derekselinger.com.
I am on the socials and have a small YouTube channel at https://www.youtube.com/@derekselinger
Thank you so much for your insights. This was very insightful and meaningful.
About the Interviewer: Dina Aletras boasts over 20 years of expertise in the corporate media industry. She possesses an in-depth understanding of growth, strategy, and leadership, having held significant roles at some of the UK’s largest media organizations. At Reach PLC, the UK’s largest tabloid publisher, she served in various director capacities. Additionally, she held leadership roles at The Independent Magazine Group and DMGT. Her extensive knowledge spans editorial, digital, revenue, sales, and advertising.
Upon relocating to Switzerland, Dina took on the responsibility of managing and promoting the international section of Corriere del Ticino — CdT.ch pioneering the English page “onthespot.” She also was the Co-Editor of Southern Switzerland’s first official Italian and English bilingual magazine.
Derek Selinger of Wonder Entertainment and Productions: 5 Things You Should Do To Become a Thought… was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.