An Interview With Maria Angelova
Not asking yourself if what’s stopping you is a difference that will make a difference — this one is huge. Oftentimes, the reasons and the “logic” we cite that stops us from doing something is actually, quite frankly, irrelevant.
It feels most comfortable to stick with what we are familiar with. But anyone who has achieved great success will tell you that true growth comes from pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. What are some ways that influential people have pushed themselves out of their comfort zone to grow both personally and professionally? As a part of this series, I had the pleasure of interviewing Abby Chow, MA, RCC-ACS.
Abby’s background in marketing and fashion journalism took a sharp turn when her personal navigating of relational trauma through a justice-oriented lens shifted her career towards counselling and therapy. Abby is currently the Clinical Director of Venturous Counselling and Consulting, a group practice focused on providing beyond the talk services that brings community back into mental health and an adjunct faculty member at various local universities. She currently specializes in supporting ethically aligned personal and professional growth as contextualized by her previous clinical experience working with people resisting multiple systems of oppression, often manifesting as being impacted by the criminal punishment system, addictions, and relational trauma.
Thank you so much for doing this with us! Before we start, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you tell us a bit about your childhood backstory?
Absolutely! I think it’s important to first name the social contexts that impacted my childhood because it really speaks to the development and limitations of my worldview. In particular, I grew up as an only child of a first generation, racialized working class family, currently occupying the unceded territories of the xʷməθkwəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish), S’ólh Téméxw (Stó:lō), Səl̓ílwətaʔ/Selilwitulh (Tsleil-Waututh), Qayqayt, and kʷikʷəƛ̓əm (Kwikwetlem) peoples. I’m cis-queer with straight partner privilege and navigate the world in a straight-sized body.
As a child growing up in these particular contexts, I found a lot of value in taking up the role of organizing and problem solving. In that environment you learn really quickly the value of resourcefulness and community in order to survive and move through the difficulties of life. My racialized, working class experience in particular, gave me a kind of life training to be accountable for my family and my community that really helped me look at growth and setbacks very differently. I’m always very grateful for those experiences in building up the resilience that is crucial for continual growth and it really helps me in my work where I specialize in supporting individuals and organizations move past their comfort zone in a way that is in alignment with their ethics.
Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share how that was relevant to you in your life?
It’s so hard to pick one! So I hope it’s okay if I give two. One that has been with me longer is “An unexamined life is not a life worth living” by Irvin Yalom. This quote has gotten me through many difficult, sometimes heartbreaking, pivots in my life. It reminds me that the point is not to be perfect or even to be successful, but to live life through an intentional awareness. What I’ve noticed is that intentionality in reflection and action is what brings success, not intentionality for success — something that I think is well represented in this quote.
A more recent one that has really been resonating with me is “Heaven is a practice, not a promise” by activist and scholar, ALOK. They share this reminding us that many times our daily interactions with others and ourselves creates the kind of world that we want to live in, that there isn’t necessarily a payment of suffering needed for us to reach connection, meaning, and joy in the future if we work on consistently working on the practice of the here and now — a much needed perspective shift when things feel too overwhelming to shift in the moment.
Is there a particular book, podcast, or film that made a significant impact on you? Can you share a story or explain why it resonated with you so much?
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind has always been one of my favorite movies. Not because of the romance aspect of it — but because it really makes you think about whether or not you would choose to erase the experiences that you’ve had. It really speaks to our fast reward, feel no pain culture that we have right now; what are we losing by engaging in that culture? Our experiences, painful or not, are pivotal in shaping who we are and whether or not the life we live feels meaningful and fulfilling.
More recently, the Man Enough podcast — and in particular the episodes with Richie Reseda & Mannie Thomas III on incarceration, trauma, and patriarchy, and the episode with ALOK on the urgent need for compassion — have been very impactful on my life and work. They provide such great context to understand the world that we live in and have fundamentally changed the conversations I’ve been able to have with clients, students, friends and family. I’ve listened to both of these episodes maybe 15 times! Highly recommended!
Let’s now shift to the main part of our discussion. Let’s start with a basic definition so that all of us are on the same page. What does “getting outside of your comfort zone” mean?
To me, getting outside of your comfort zone is to engage with something that doesn’t feel natural to you in ways that are in alignment with your values, the life you want to live, and the world you want to create. It’s not only behaviours, but also ways of thinking, stories of the world, experiences of other people, and what world we believe can be possible.
Can you help articulate a few reasons why it is important to get out of your comfort zone?
I guess the most obvious reason is that you’ll feel quite unfulfilled with your life if you don’t ever move out of your comfort zone. Pride and fulfillment requires adversity and risk, in general, to exist. I like to think of it as playing a video game. If you play the same level over and over again, it’s not going to feel very fulfilling. Similarly, if you get to the end of the game and the boss is really easy to handle, it’s going to feel like you’ve wasted your time rather than actually having accomplished something. The most rewarding video games — and experiences — are ones that were challenging, had a good story with interesting, flawed characters, and an impactful life lesson baked right in it, right?
That being said, I think more important is this: staying within your comfort zone, to only do things as they’ve always been done, not only keeps you and the world stagnant, but also can perpetuate problematic narratives and actions in the world.
We live in a world where many people fear for their lives simply because of the social context they exist in, have trouble accessing food, or aren’t able to access stable housing. Without collectively being able to access the active, intentional acceptance of the discomfort and risk that comes with getting out of the status quo way of operating, we won’t be able to create a world that will be more effective in responding to suffering. And that requires a level of getting outside of our comfort zones in a way more multidimensional, comprehensive, and nuanced way than, say, working 80 hours a week just to see if you can.
Is it possible to grow without leaving your comfort zone? Can you explain what you mean?
Well, I guess that depends on your definition of growth. You can definitely expand the depth to which you are in your comfort zone and that is technically “growing” in a numerical, scale-like sense. But if you define growth as moving towards the person you want to be but aren’t yet, I don’t think it would be possible to do that without stepping outside your comfort zone.
Who you are is who you consistently choose to be, most of the time.
You are not just your thoughts, you are not just your history, you are not just your emotions, behaviours and relationships. You are the consciousness that looks at all these things and chooses which parts to take action on, which ones to create meaning from, which parts to make a reality. And because no one is perfect and no one is only the worst thing that they’ve ever done, who you are can only be who you consistently choose to be most of the time.
If you keep choosing the same things, you stay the same person.
Can you share some anecdotes from your personal experience? Can you share a story about a time when you stepped out of your comfort zone and how it helped you grow? How does it feel to take those first difficult steps?
Currently, in my career I do many different things. I run several companies, work on the front line, support other front line workers through clinical supervision, and I teach counsellors-in-training in graduate programs. All of these things were difficult to begin with at first and I’ve run into many instances of difficulty throughout. But teaching is, in particular, something I never thought I would do. I don’t have much patience, I generally get frustrated explaining things multiple times, and I also get very nervous and rambly speaking to larger groups.
But the thing is, I’ve learned the most about the subject I teach and developed myself the most as a person through teaching. You don’t know what you don’t know until you’re faced with it. I’ve learned so much from my students sharing their experiences and knowledge and witnessing their ability to support each other in their learning shifted my judgmental, ableist attitudes about human potential, which in turn supports me so much in my work. I’ve also witnessed firsthand how flawed traditional pedagogy of teaching is; my role is not to dispense information like a vending machine, my role is to help facilitate environments for learning in ways that are conducive to personal growth and change. It not only helped me strengthen and add nuance to my values of community, collective humanity, and mutual growth, it also fundamentally shifted the ways in which I related to other people.
Learning and growing is generative — it’s exponential and always illuminates spaces you wouldn’t have thought of consciously, and it’s always better when done with other people. Shifting from the traditional, individualistic paradigm to one that centers collective humanity and collective liberation makes you feel less alone in the world too, and when we really think about why growth is important to us, essentially it is all about connection and meaning. If that feels like a little bit of a jump, I challenge people to really interrogate what the end game is for their growth and see what comes up!
Anyway, to sum it up, I guess at first, stepping outside of my comfort zone sucked, but it sucked less when I got out of my own way (aka. Checked my ego at the door); and now, along with some of the same discomforts, is meaning and purpose in ways I couldn’t have imagined previously.
Here is the central question of our discussion. What are your “five ways to push past your comfort zone, to grow both personally and professionally”? From your experience or perspective, what are some of the common barriers that keep someone from pushing out of their comfort zone?
I love this question! Supporting people in getting out of their comfort zone and growing in alignment with who they want to be, their ethics and their values, is literally my bread and butter. This is what I’ve learned from my decade (well, decade plus!) in the field:
- Not knowing the difference between what helped you survive and what will help you thrive — we live in a world that has required many of us to survive the contexts and conditions that we were born into. In order for us to survive, we’ve adapted many different tactics that took into account what we had access to at the time. Those are all very useful skills and we know that because it took us out of the context that harmed us. That being said, a lot of times “what got you here won’t get you there” so learning what conditions help us thrive is an important mindset shift to help us think about and let go of the now problematic habits that are ingrained in us.
We actually work through this a lot with our clients and it usually shows up as negative self talk. A lot of clients think about motivation as needing to be harsh, but it really just limits their ability to see growth in more adaptive ways. In thinking about thriving rather than surviving, one of my clients was actually able to fundamentally shift the way they thought about their limitations, which was such a game changer! After all, our beliefs about what is possible decides what we think we can do about it. Why would you want to limit any possibility for growth?
2. Not asking yourself if what’s stopping you is a difference that will make a difference — this one is huge. Oftentimes, the reasons and the “logic” we cite that stops us from doing something is actually, quite frankly, irrelevant. Many logical fallacies that keep us in our comfort zone actually do nothing to change our bottom line. Instead of trying to argue with ourselves or ensure the conditions are perfect or ideal before we move forward, why not ask yourself what you can do in this moment that will help change the conditions that are limiting? What would be one thing that would make everything else feel a little bit easier? Start with the end in mind and move backward from there until it seems actionable. We see what we look for, so start looking for the difference that will make a difference. Not what would keep you exactly where you are.
3. Not grounding your efforts in your “why” — getting outside your comfort zone isn’t just about forcing yourself to do something you haven’t done before. Being okay with risk and failure is only one part of the equation; congruence of purpose and context is crucial. When we know why we are doing something, especially when that is grounded in our ethics and guided by the person we want to be and the world we want to create, we create a biological alignment within ourselves that is crucial to lasting growth. Think about it — when you have a craving for something it’s much easier to move forward with it than to continue staying stagnant. Use this aligned internal landscape to leverage your natural biology in growing. It’s kind of like swimming with one arm, you can do it, and you’ll probably get to shore, but wouldn’t it be a lot easier to use your whole being to propel you forward?
4. Trying to go at it alone rather than prioritizing building a community — contrary to popular belief, you can’t do it alone. And also why would you want to? As Mariame Kaba says, “Everything worthwhile is done with other people”; you don’t know what you don’t know, no one is good at everything, and you are but one person. Knowing your weaknesses and building a community of people who can support you and keep you accountable for the pieces where you don’t naturally excel at just makes good sense and makes your life so much easier. There is so much to learn from everyone you meet, we don’t need to reinvent the wheel here, we just need to cooperate. I like to think of this like building a computer, why would you expect 1gb of ram to do the work of 8? Would you choose 1gb of ram when you can choose 8?
5. Neglecting to take care of yourself — growth is a marathon, not a sprint; just as you wouldn’t shoot yourself in the foot before you go on a hike, tough love does nothing but reinforce old narratives of “motivation” that have been thoroughly disproven by science. This is a thought exercise I like to use with the people I work with: think about two people, one that treats you like crap and one that treats you really well, they both ask you the same favor within the same timeframe; which one would you rather help?
The person who treats you well, right? Why would your relationship with yourself be any different? There’s a big difference between being kind to yourself and being complacent. Don’t conflate the two.
There is a well-known quote attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt that says, “Do something that scares you every day”. What exactly does this mean to you? Is there inherent value in doing something that pushes you out of your comfort zone, even if it does not relate to personal or professional growth? For example, if one is uncomfortable about walking alone at night should they purposely push themselves to do it often for the sake of going beyond their comfort zone? Can you please explain what you mean?
I think value is relative and can’t be taken out of context from who you want to be and what kind of world you’d like to create. If walking alone at night doesn’t move you towards your end goal, you’re just expending energy that you could have used elsewhere. Time and energy are not an infinite resource, your time and your energy matters, so put it towards something that actually matters to you. I would imagine some people might think that this might help build the muscles for growth, but in my experience, you don’t need to practice to grow, every step you take is already part of the journey towards growth, so you might as well be intentional with it.
You are a person of great influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be?
I’m a real nerd about the basic fundamental building blocks of relational communication and inherent care for all that shares this world with us. I think if we can collectively master the skill of having compassion and care, a lot of our world’s issues would go away. So I think that’s what I would like to inspire a movement for — fundamental compassion and care. It’s a little corny, but my New Year’s resolution this year is to embrace the corn, so here we are!
Is there a person in the world whom you would love to have lunch with, and why? Maybe we can tag them and see what happens!
I would love to spend some time with adrienne maree brown (a note to editors, she spells her name with all lower case). I’ve learned so much from her and would love to learn even more, but more importantly, she has such an embodiment of the ethics and collective liberation that a lot of us are trying to work towards and with so much joy inherent in her approach that it would be so great to spend time just being in the same space.
How can our readers follow you online?
The best way to follow me would be through our free newsletters where every month our therapists support you in reflection for common themes that limit personal growth. You can join our newsletters at https://www.venturouscounselling.com/getstarted. For any practitioners who are reading this, they might also be interested in connecting with us through our justice-oriented consulting arm called Reflecting on Justice at www.reflectingonjustice.com. We have a podcast and do weekly justice-based newsletters specifically geared towards helping professions.
Thank you for these really excellent insights, and we greatly appreciate the time you spent with this. We wish you continued success.
About The Interviewer: Maria Angelova, MBA is a disruptor, author, motivational speaker, body-mind expert, Pilates teacher and founder and CEO of Rebellious Intl. As a disruptor, Maria is on a mission to change the face of the wellness industry by shifting the self-care mindset for consumers and providers alike. As a mind-body coach, Maria’s superpower is alignment which helps clients create a strong body and a calm mind so they can live a life of freedom, happiness and fulfillment. Prior to founding Rebellious Intl, Maria was a Finance Director and a professional with 17+ years of progressive corporate experience in the Telecommunications, Finance, and Insurance industries. Born in Bulgaria, Maria moved to the United States in 1992. She graduated summa cum laude from both Georgia State University (MBA, Finance) and the University of Georgia (BBA, Finance). Maria’s favorite job is being a mom. Maria enjoys learning, coaching, creating authentic connections, working out, Latin dancing, traveling, and spending time with her tribe. To contact Maria, email her at angelova@rebellious-intl.com. To schedule a free consultation, click here.
Abby Chow On How to Go Beyond Your Comfort Zone to Grow Both Personally and Professionally was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.