An Interview With Vanessa Ogle
Empower each individual to close their awareness gaps: While my primary focus has been on helping organizations create more just and equitable systems, every individual within a community contributes to how inclusive it feels. So, the question is how can you, a company, empower your team to become more inclusive.
In a world where diversity is often acknowledged but not always celebrated, we are taking a step forward to highlight the importance of inclusivity in building strong, vibrant communities. This series aims to explore the various facets of diversity — be it racial, cultural, gender-based, or within the differently-abled community — and understand how embracing these differences strengthens our social fabric. As part of this series, we had the pleasure of interviewing Ash Schwedt.
Ash Schwedt is a Los Angeles based Equity & Inclusion Consultant, partnering with organizations around the world to build systems that drive organizational justice and mitigate oppressive structures that strive to maintain an imbalance of power. Ash received her Master’s in Social Work from the University of Michigan and uses that expertise to bring people-focused practices into corporate, education, and non-profit organizations. But she’s not all business! Ash is also a competitive soccer player with the West Hollywood Soccer Club and travels the world to compete against other queer soccer teams.
Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series. Before we dive into our discussion about celebrating diversity, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you share with us the backstory about what brought you to your specific career path?
Of course! Upon graduating from my bachelor’s program, I was a bit lost and didn’t really know my next steps. I couldn’t find a job that seemed like it would be fulfilling or aligned with my passions, and so I decided to take a pause and complete a year of service with AmeriCorps. I was placed with a prison re-entry program, where I worked with folks from pre-release up to six months post-release from prison. The prison industrial complex, one of the most oppressive systems that exists, was a space of social justice work that I had never explored. This experience showed me how systems that are marketed as helpful can actually be extremely detrimental (as well as not research-backed!) to individuals, communities, and entire societies. From there, I knew I wanted to spend my career uncovering other systems in place to maintain oppressive power dynamics and attempt to minimize, or even mitigate, their impact.
Can you share an interesting or hopeful story where spending time with someone who did not look like you or who was different from you taught you something that has been useful to you?
There’s one specific experience I think about often, maybe because it was personal and not professional. In my 20s, I was in a fairly serious relationship. My partner, who was Black, told me that she was going to a birthday party for one of her friends, and wasn’t sure if she should invite me to join. I vividly remember sitting on the couch talking about it, and her saying, “Well you’d probably be the only white person there.” And then my response, “Oh, I don’t mind!” And then silence. She looked at me, and slowly said, “I know… but they might.” How had I been so obtuse to think my comfort was the only thing that mattered? But I also don’t think this is uncommon. I was caught up in being a “good white person” without considering that I am a white person. I think about this constantly. When we have privilege, we have to accept that our mere presence can make a space feel less safe for those who are marginalized. Even if we take consistent action to be an ally, we still do not share the experience that bonds a group with shared identities together.
You are a successful leader. Which three character traits do you think were most instrumental to your success? Can you please share a story or example for each?
- Humble curiosity. Ask questions, never assume my truth is the objective truth, get excited about being wrong. Some of my favorite questions to ask are, “That’s just my understanding, what is yours?”, “What would make this feel easier?”, “How did that land for you?”, and “What concerns you most about this?” I operate with the belief that if someone disagrees with me, I want to know because their disagreement is just as valid as my agreement.
- Bravery. Be willing to take risks, acknowledge what is uncomfortable but not unsafe. It can be hard to be labelled a troublemaker. It can be career-making or career-breaking depending on the social capital and privilege you hold. Early on in my career, I chose to go with the flow and sacrifice my values for efficiency and ease. But now, decades into equity and justice work, I have made my career on pushing back, challenging the status quo, and asking the hard questions that not everyone feels safe asking.
- Clear communication. Share feedback, be honest, remove fluff. I believe in being direct and kind. What I don’t want is for people to be confused or unsure about what I’m saying. I don’t want people to have to make up their own stories about what I mean. I might say something like, “I’m not totally sold on this idea yet. Before we get started, can I share my concerns?”
Ok, thank you for that. Let’s now jump to the primary focus of our interview. Can you share a personal story that highlights the impact of diversity and inclusivity in your life or career?
Such a broad question! Maybe I’ll share an example of a time lack of diversity impacted me.
How do you approach and manage the challenges that arise when working towards creating more inclusive communities?
There are so many challenges, so I guess it depends on what kind! There’s the challenge of actually creating inclusivity, the challenge of getting each person to contribute to an inclusive culture, the challenge of getting leadership to buy-in to inclusion as a priority, the challenge of my own burn out in attempting to overcome these challenges…
Whenever I’m approaching a challenge, I try to get specific about what the challenge really is and where I can have influence. For example, if a challenge I’m experiencing is that a senior leadership team has said they care about inclusion but hasn’t taken any specific action to become more inclusive, I’ll start by getting specific. Am I talking about everyone on the leadership team? What actions have they or haven’t they taken? What have they been asked to do, if anything? What outcomes am I hoping to see? By asking questions to get more specific, I now have a challenge I can work on rather than an abstract concept. I know that I can’t fix the world. I can’t do everything. So, if I can zoom in on the things I have the ability to impact, I can make real change.
What innovative strategies or initiatives have you implemented or observed that effectively promote the importance of diversity and inclusivity?
There’s a lot of research on how hiring practices can drive or stifle diversity, and yet companies are often hesitant to change how they hire. It’s not just about posting jobs on boards that have diverse audiences. From job descriptions to screening to interviews to selecting candidates, there are specific changes companies can make that will cultivate a more inclusive process and drives diversity.
Two of my favorite strategies for hiring processes are:
- Build in structure to minimize personal bias. Most components of the process can be structured. This could be the screening questions you ask candidates, the instructions they’re given ahead of an interview, the way people are scored during an interview, the questions people are asked (including follow-ups) during an interview, the way candidates are rated, and how the final decision is made.
- Develop a candidate-friendly process. The goal of most interviews is to assess how the candidate would perform in the role, not to assess if they’re good at interviewing. And yet, too often, components of the hiring process are treated like a “test” for the candidate. Give people information! Share with them what kind of questions you’ll be asking, what makes a good response, how long they have, if you’ll be taking notes, and why you’re using a structured process. Ask if it’s helpful for you to put the questions in chat (assuming it’s virtual) as you ask them for candidates who may be visual processors. Tell people to take their time answering if they need a moment to think.
These small changes can have a huge impact on candidates who may be experiencing imposterism, who are neurodivergent or learn differently, who are introverts, who are nervous from not having a lot of interview experience, or who aren’t used to promoting themselves.
In your opinion, what are the key elements that make a community truly inclusive, and how can these be fostered on a larger scale?
To me, inclusion means creating systems and taking individual action so that people are invited to participate, have access to opportunities, and feel able to show up authentically. Inclusion is more than just a feeling — it is a series of intentional actions. Inclusion is not the same as belonging. Inclusion is the actions people take, and belonging is the way it makes you feel.
Imagine your workplace is planning a company offsite. How exciting! Everyone is invited and their flight and lodging are paid for, and food is provided at the venue. Seems inclusive, right? Maybe. What if you’re a single parent and by going to the offsite, you need to find and pay for childcare? Still seem inclusive? The company tells you that it isn’t required to attend, you can stay home if you want. What about now? Is this inclusive? No. There are still people who will be left out. Even if it is framed as a choice, the process of making that choice is not the same for everyone. Too often, I see situations where organizations attempt inclusion, but because of lack of representation in the groups that are making decisions, the attempts at inclusion don’t go far enough to ensure people have access and feel safe showing up authentically.
Based on your experience and research, can you please share “5 Ways We Can Build Inclusive Communities”?
1 . Design for marginalized communities: Designing for marginalized communities is making decisions based on those who will be most impacted instead of making decisions based on majority. Here’s an example. You do a company climate survey and 95% of people say that the health benefits they receive meet their needs. Wow! That’s great news, right?! What if I told you that of the 5% who said the health benefits are not meeting their needs, 90% of those people are transgender. Does this still seem like the health benefits are sufficient?
We can rework this example in any situation with any marginalized community. A queer sports league asks if athletes feel safe playing there, and 80% say yes. Of the 20% who say no, 80% are Black. An office surveys employees to find out if the desk setup is conducive to getting work done. Most people say yes! Of those who don’t, almost all identify as neurodivergent.
At face value, the majority may give a singular story. But if we do not dissect the data to better understand the patterns, we’re missing the more interesting stories data can tell. If we only make decisions based on the majority, we are continuing to recenter those who already have privilege. This is how privilege begets privilege, norm begets norm, and marginalization begets marginalization. Which is why intentional design for the margins is so important. Designing for the margins also means that everyone will be better served. Even better healthcare? Superb! Even safer playing environment? Stellar! Even better work environment? Stunning!
2 . Dedicate resources to both education and support: Educating folks about identities, privilege, power, and oppression is important. Yet this alone will not create an inclusive culture. A more holistic approach is to also prioritize supporting employees who experience inequities and injustices. What about folks who are experiencing microaggressions? Who are getting passed up for promotions? Whose healthcare doesn’t cover their necessary medical procedures? These folks need organizational and peer support. Support and education need to occur simultaneously to truly build a culture that is inclusive.
Resources (money, time, effort, staff) should be dedicated to both educating people with power and supporting those who are marginalized. A series of educational workshops will be most impactful when being paired with affinity groups or Employee Resource Groups for people with marginalized identities. A diversity training for executives will be most fruitful when paired with a mentorship program for people with marginalized identities.
Education is vital. Helping people understand how to be more inclusive, how to cultivate and value diversity, how to honor the experiences of people with different identities, and how to build systems that are equitable will make a big impact! Support is also vital. Don’t forget to ensure employees who are marginalized have the resources and support they need to thrive in the culture you’re attempting to create.
3 . Collect data and do something with it: It’s impossible to know the landscape of your organization if you don’t have data on your employees’ experiences. Collecting data doesn’t always have to be a once-per-year survey. There are many ways to collect useful data from your employees. Data is a vital point in creating inclusive cultures because it allows you to notice trends across demographic groups, identify what initiatives are making an impact, and show people that their voices matter by acting on the feedback employees provide.
There are many places where you can collect data. Some include; at different stages of the hiring process, during onboarding, after three months in a role, anytime a manager changes, before and after any new initiative, and annual engagement surveys. Collecting data doesn’t have to just be through surveys either. Consider hosting focus groups, asking managers to ask employees questions during 1–1s, or even having CEO roundtables.
Collecting data can offer a lot of valuable insights. It can also be overwhelming. Let data help you prioritize the things that matter most. You cannot do everything. Let’s say that again. You cannot do everything. If you try to do everything, you will do lots of things at a mediocre level. If you prioritize and focus, you can do a few things great! You can also communicate with your employees about what insights their feedback highlighted, what you’ll be doing with it, and when they can expect more information. This shows that you care about people’s feedback and are going to use it to create meaningful change.
4 . Practice prevention and response: In an ideal world, we would focus our work on prevention. We would eliminate bias and discrimination and microaggressions before they even happened. We could educate people about identities and experiences, create values and norms that prioritize equity and justice, and ensure leaders know how to establish an inclusive culture. Alas, we do not exist in an ideal world. Even in the most inclusive, supportive, and safe environment, there will be a time when biases pop up and impact people.
This is why we must also dedicate resources into response work. What happens after a microaggression occurs? What happens after someone accuses their manager of preferential treatment? What happens after a client’s values are outed as being incongruent with your own? Are there policies, systems, and practices in place to mitigate and minimize the harm? Even if we missed the chance to prevent the harm, that doesn’t mean our jobs are over. We now have the ability to repair. Adam Grant calls this the second score. The idea that when we mess up, when we do something wrong, when we allow harm to occur, we’re given a negative “score” by those who are impacted. However, we then receive a second score based on how we respond to the situation that occurred. And this second score is often equally, if not more, important than the original negative mark.
If we don’t plan for the response work, we’re living in an ideal that isn’t realistic. Those with privilege will want to believe that the ideal can exist. This is where the concept of color-blindness came from; wanting to believe in an ideal where race doesn’t impact how we’re treated. However, this ideal isn’t real, and thus it ignores and even gaslights real lived experiences. In some ways, planning response work can act as its own form of prevention because it sends a message of what is accepted and what isn’t, and it shows people that there is a plan in place to support their safety.
One way to do this is to ask yourself, “What’s the worst that could happen?” and create a plan for what you’ll do in that situation. Similar questions might be, “What would cause this to fail?” or “What would derail us?”. Then detail a plan for how you could handle it. It shows you’re prepared and will also make your life exponentially easier if and when those situations arise.
5 . Empower each individual to close their awareness gaps: While my primary focus has been on helping organizations create more just and equitable systems, every individual within a community contributes to how inclusive it feels. So, the question is how can you, a company, empower your team to become more inclusive.
To build a more inclusive team, employees must have time built into their schedules to learn and build awareness. Build in capacity for learning on the job, not just about their tasks, but about how they engage with each other. This can be done via workshops, trainings, panels, book clubs, sharing articles, or creating a resource database. Once there’s available on-the-clock education, ask people to share their learnings. This can be done in small groups, via a chat tool, or just with their managers. To create an inclusive, learning-based culture, leaders need to be doing this as well.
Another great option is to ask all employees to identify a identity-, experience-, or behavior-based focus area that they want to work on to become a more inclusive colleague. Then, share a development plan template employees can use to track their own progress. While it is up to every individual to retain and implement their learnings, at the organization-level, a lot can be done to make employee development more successful.
How do you measure the impact and success of diversity and inclusion efforts, and what changes have you seen as a result of these initiatives?
My best advice is to do a gap analysis for any initiative. Identify your current state, your desired state, and what it will take to bridge the gap. Along the way, you can collect data that will help you identify if you’re making progress and how much progress you’re making.
At my last organization, one of the questions we asked in our annual engagement survey was about employees experiencing microaggressions at work. What I learned was that 11% of our employees said that they experienced a microaggression from a coworker within the last three months. This was the current state. While my desired state was obviously 0%, I also knew that wasn’t realistic. So, I decided to see if I could take it from 11% to 5% within one year. The first thing I needed to do was learn more about the people experiencing microaggressions. I cross-analyzed the data with the demographics of the respondents and found that the majority of people experiencing microaggressions from coworkers identified as transgender or non-binary. This information allowed me to create intentional changes that would help minimize the microaggressions occurring on our team. I collaborated with our queer employee resource group to create a series of educational programming for the team, and I worked with our People Team to ensure our policies and systems were inclusive of our trans and non-binary employees.
In our next engagement survey the following year, only 4% of employees reported experiencing microaggressions from colleagues in the last 3 months! Because of the data I had, I was able to focus on one specific challenge and make a real impact on employee experience.
You are a person of great influence. If you could start a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. 🙂
A movement for equity. Equality often doesn’t do enough to create a more fair or just society. Instead, it maintains the existing power structures. I would love a movement for equity. Equality means everyone receives the same resources, no matter their different needs and experiences. Equity means people receive appropriate resources based on their specific needs and experiences.
The systems and structures in our society are not set up to benefit everyone. And that means that people who are marginalized or oppressed by our existing systems and structures need different resources and supports. This does not make it any harder for people in power. It simply means that more people will have access to that power. If I could help everyone understand the importance of equity, I would do that immediately.
How can our readers further follow you online?
Check me out on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashschwedt/) to follow along with my current work and to reach out if you’re interested in working together in the future!
Thank you for the time you spent sharing these fantastic insights. We wish you continued success in your great work!
About The Interviewer: Vanessa Ogle is an entrepreneur, inventor, writer, and singer/songwriter. She is best known as the founder of Enseo which she and her team grew into one of the largest out-of-home media and connected networks in the world, serving more than 100,000,000 people annually. Vanessa’s talent in building world-class leadership teams focused on diversity, a culture of service, and innovation through inclusion resulted in amazing partnerships and customer relationships. She collaborated with the world’s leading technology and content companies such as Netflix, Amazon, HBO, and Dish Networks to bring innovative solutions to the hospitality industry. Enseo has also held an exclusive contract to provide movies to the entire U.S. armed forces for almost 15 years. Vanessa and her team’s relentless innovation resulted in120+ U.S. Patents. Her favorite product is the MadeSafe solution for hotel workers as well as students and children in their K-12 classrooms. Accolades include: #15 on FAST 100, 50 Fastest Growing Women-Owned 2018–2020, Entrepreneur 360 Best Companies 2018–2020, not to mention the Inc. 500 and then another six times on the Inc. 5000. Vanessa was personally honored with Inc. 100 Female Founder’s Award, Ernst and Young’s Entrepreneur of the Year Award, and Enterprising Women of the Year. Vanessa now spends her time enjoying her children, sharing stories to inspire and give hope through articles and speaking engagements. entrepreneurs-to-be with her articles including her LinkedIN newsletter Unplugged. In her spare time she writes music with her husband Paul as the band HigherHill, teaches surfing clinics, and trains dogs.
Please connect with Vanessa here on linkedin and subscribe to her newsletter Unplugged as well as follow her on Substack.
Celebrating Diversity: Ash Schwedt On How To Build Inclusive Communities was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.